To think that responsive/attachment parenting doesn't give a flying fuck about maternal wellbeing?

[Santaslittlehelper83]

....or the family unit. I recently joined the fb group 'Beyond Sleep Training' as was interested in some different ideas for managing our babies frequent night awakenings. CIO/CC is not for me but I'm not adverse to more gentler methods of ST. I was really disturbed by some posts by quite clearly desperate mums, and the advice in a nutshell seemed to boil down to....'that's normal baby behaviour, deal with it!' There was to be fair some advice re tweaking routines etc, and messages of solidarity but nothing else. A lot of posters were referencing their toddlers/preschoolers who hadn't slept more than 2 hours consecutively since birth...on what planet is that helpful to a sleep deprived mum at the end of her rope!? I think it was almost competetive, like a token of honour with generally a lot of sneering towards families who chose a different approach. I also didn't see the logic of lumping all sleep training methods together....someone sensibly suggested removing nipple gently when baby finished night feed to avoid this becoming a sleep association....this was shot down by a very heavy handed post by the admin.

Of course babies needs are paramount, but Mums (and Dads) matter too.

I joined that group as my second child was waking every two hours or so after the four month sleep regression. I breastfed to sleep child one and didn’t sleep train or co-sleep. They sleep pretty well now as a toddler. It did help me realise that a tongue tie might be causing sleep and feeding issues. We had it snipped (my eldest had one snipped at a much younger age). At 11 months sleep has improved with a couple of wake ups per night.

It is hard if you don’t want to co-sleep or sleep train. Ultimately you have to weigh up the pros and cons depending on your family circumstances. What works for one family may not work for another.

There’s no support for fathers. My DH raised the DC for most of their babyhood through to secondary school. I was back to work FT before they were 3mos old. I breastfed so pumped while at work and nursed the evenings and nights. He tried to join baby and toddler groups…only to be told that despite the name and advertising these were actually “mum” groups and to tell me I was welcome …like WTF? I had to work…. He found a few other SAHDs who were also military trailing spouses and they had their own meet ups. But being early SAHDs, there were no older SAHDs with baby experience. By the time our youngest (we have four) was a baby it was a bit better and a baby toddler group at church did welcome him in as a token SAHD…and then two more joined up while he was there. He volunteered to do lots of the grunt work so that helped.

Based on my superficial knowledge – Based on the old model of "village" caregiving, I think babies traditionally are meant to always have someone actively engaged with them, and this probably leads to better outcomes for babies.

But if the reality is that there's just 1 mother, I don't see how wearing her into the ground is going to be good for the baby?! On balance, a somewhat happy and rested (as far as possible of course) caregiver who's not 1000% engaged is probably better than a hyper-engaged bundle of stress caregivers. Even if you fake positivity in front of your baby, there's biological things like stress hormones etc.

It seems to me that babies need sleep, and I've barely ever met a happy sleep deprived one. Also mums of several under fives don't have 3 or 4 pairs of hands.

I have only read the title.
Attachment/responsive parenting does not require mothers to sacrifice their mental well being.

Consistently being responsive, or aiming to follow certain ways of doing things allows those caring for the baby to look after their own needs as well.

I was doing attachment parenting before the term was even used in the UK. I never really used it as it sounded like an American import. Also it was (maybe it still is?) associated with cloth nappies, which never made any sense to me at all.

I think I was just so struck by the complete disregard of Mum and Dad

That’s just not my experience of the group at all. I wonder if you’re seeing what you expect to rather than what’s the majority of posts are actually saying.

It supports mums and dads who find the approach baby centred approach helpful, often in the face of criticism and judgement from other people in their lives.

The “what are you whinging about just sleep train the baby” attitude loads of posters on here are wedded to isn’t more helpful or supportive to parents who are struggling than “here’s what works for our family…”

There’s a huge lack of understanding of normal infant behaviour. Every week there are posts on here wondering why a days or weeks old baby won’t sleep unless held. Just sharing that it’s normal, the baby isn’t defective, you’re not failing, can be very supportive and validating. It helps the bond between new parents and their babies to know what to expect and that neither party is doing anything wrong. If you think you’ve got a broken baby who’s intentionally trying to drive you insane how’s that helpful? If you accept that babies today do as babies have ever done you’re fighting one less battle.

Practicing responsive and attachment parenting in our modern society is HARD there can be no denying that it's of course best for babies (that's why some of these parents are so passionate about it I guess) but like many 'natural' things.....it can be quite idealistic in this day and age, where us mums are juggling the responsibilities of work more than ever before, rushing back to a busy and often non- understanding workplace when babies are often still very up and down with their sleep, trying to hold down intense jobs needing certain levels of mental and physical capacity whilst trying desperately to meet the needs of our babies too.

I have practiced attachment/responsive parenting with both my babies, and whilst i'm not a fan of sleep training on the whole, ultimately a mum needs to be able to care for herself and her children properly, and that involves getting a certain amount of sleep, otherwise it could compromise her mental health, mood, and safety, which could have more of a negative impact on her children than sleep training anyway!
If someone is constantly up the majority of the night and has other children, work committments etc and has tried different tactics such as reducing naps, changing sleep/wake times etc, i would never judge or criticise them for using sleep training techniques as a necessary measure (OTHER than cry it out, as leaving a baby to cry for any period of time is never ok)

Some people have sadly become martyrs to attachment parenting (I've met afew) and bully and belittle parents who don't follow the '5 b's to a tee'.Parenting in general is more competitive than it has ever been and I sadly i doubt there is a mum out there who can say she hasn't felt judged for her choices at some point by other mothers.

Parenting in general is more competitive than it has ever been and I sadly i doubt there is a mum out there who can say she hasn't felt judged for her choices at some point by other mothers.
👏 So true. I was hella judged for leaving the kids home with DH from teeny tiny. Judged for breastfeeding. Judged for homebirths. Judged for cosleeping. Judged for baby wearing.

I've left all of the "gentle"/"attachment" parenting groups I'd joined when pregnant with my first. I wish I'd done it far sooner for the sake of my own mental health! I honestly thought that I would be a gentle parent. Turns out when you produce children that do not sleep and you have no external family support that you get ratty and eventually your mental health absolutely falls off a cliff.

For me it absolutely did not help that it was "normal", especially when all around me I could see mum's with babies that bloody slept/didn't scream 24/7. The attitude that I should just accept it and sacrifice my physical and mental health led me to sleep deprived hallucinations and almost requiring inpatient mental health treatment.

Gentle parenting might work if you have that village of support around you and a somewhat easy baby. In my world it truly didn't.

We did attachment parenting over two decades ago with kids who'd have been poor sleepers whatever we did. I went back to work as we did then when the babies were 7 months. Kids slept safely in our beds, we saw lots of them and it worked for all of us. They became champion sleepers and fantastic, well adjusted adults.

YANBU. I had PND. We did gentle controlled crying at 7 months before I lost my marbles completely.

There’s all the difference in the world between a baby who wakes three times a night to feed and then goes straight back to sleep, to one who needs to be rocked to sleep for half an hour each waking, weighs a lot, and only sleeps for 1.5 hours at a time. Hardest thing I’ve ever done.

YANBU.

Everyone needs sleep. Including babies. Telling an exhausted mum of a 2 year old that it’s normal to wake up every through the night to breastfeed is absolute nonsense. Telling a mum of a six month old who is waking every 45 minute sleep cycle to have their dummy put back in all through the night is normal and taking the dummy away is cruel, is nonsense.

Lack of sleep is almost like a badge of honour sometimes. There are no prizes for falling asleep holding your baby on the sofa because you’re so exhausted or being unable to play with your toddler for the same reason. I’m not at all in favour of letting babies cry it out, but there is a happy medium between that and the awake all night every night club.

YANBU at all! A quick glance at attachment parenting foruns or facebook groups makes me feel utterly sad. It’s basically tons of desperate posts asking for help because babies/toddler/kids are waking up every hour all night long and there’s no help other than co-sleep/pass baby to husband or grandparents and have a couple of naps on the weekends. It is insane. I’ve seen posts of spouses asking for tips on how to rekindle and find time for sex because baby/toddler/kid needs contact the whole
time to keep sleeping and loads of people suggest having sex with the toddler in bed, or while you wear baby in a sling (!!!) or just pop them in front of a TV and do a quickie on a nearby room. I cannot believe people think this is healthier than sleep training for a couple nights. Attachment parenting is not backed by science but they just parrot this nonsense that you have to be glued by the hip 24/7 or they will be forever traumatized. It makes me so angry and upset as I happen to have friends and family members depressed and losing their health and marriages because of this nonsense! My time, patience and health are limited, it is impossible to wake 10 times a night for years and be a responsive loving parent during the day. When I’m with my daughter she has my full attention, I cook her lovely healthy meals from scratch, I have energy to take her to the park, sit down and read for her, we play and dance. I find it so easy to have zero screen time because I have a full night of sleep and quality time with my husband when she‘s down for the night and that makes me a better mom. Because I love her madly I also focus on my mental health and my relationship so she can have a solid family to grow up with. So many AP friends wanted 2/3 kids and now spend their days moaning about motherhood and how they’d rather die before having another baby ever again. I always said I just wanted one; but because I know your life doesn’t need to end and be a complete chaos just because you have a baby/toddler we actually decided to TTC soon.

I got chucked out of that group for recommending Janet Lansbury as she's not gentle enough. Which is absolute bollocks

I agree. I remember being slumped sobbing in the corner of the kitchen in the four month sleep regression because I hadn't slept more than 2 hours (at night) in 18 weeks. I feel like some people (here and elsewhere) would have just made cat's bum face and stepped over me while telling me I'd chosen to have a baby so needed to suck it up.

I call this martyrdom motherhood. If you are not suffering you are apparently not doing it right.

These are the same people that couldn't possibly leave their baby even for five minutes (said with an undertone of because I love he/she more).

There's a place for sleep training (and heaven forbid there's a place for formula) when it is impacting life to this extent. Maternal mental health is often considered as some separate entity that shouldn't be considered and we should all strive for what is text book best when the reality is finding the right balance for you.

Well said. I had a great time with my DC when they were small. DC 1 slept from
midnight to 7 am from 8 weeks on. What the hell is all this competitive ‘parenting is crap’ thing? Babies need to learn to sleep and settle themselves. An exhausted parent is not good for any child.

IME every parenting Facebook group is it's own unique brand of batshit. I personally find the safe sleep ones the most egregiously insane, but I've also seen some total nonsense in the Beyond Sleep Training group too.

The funny thing is their kids are often bad tempered, over tired and ‘anxious’

If you leave the baby to cry for 20 minutes until it goes to sleep, for 2 or nights it's likely then to sleep through permanently. Which means a much better life for both mum and baby.

A baby is not an “it”
I couldn’t leave them to cry like that. DH and I basically took the time to problem solve why they were crying and gave them whatever they needed so there wasn’t a lot of crying. Every baby is different and I think letting them cry until they give up is lazy parenting. Thank goodness we didn’t do that as two of them had silent reflux and they were crying because they were in pain. 🤷‍♀️

YANBU

On Mumsnet it's common for people to say it's normal baby behaviour to wake many times a night. Apparently for toddlers too.

It's seen as a bad thing to want your baby to sleep at night. There's an assumption that to achieve this you need to leave your baby to cry alone. It's possible to achieve with no crying if you stick to a routine.

Unfortunately many of us are back in work - I was back when DD was 4 months. So it was important as I didn't have a year off.

I don't think the well-being or the Mum is prioritised enough. To be a good Mum to a baby plus potentially a couple of other kids a good night sleep is needed.

Totally agree with you. They like to martyr themselves as great parents who find sleep training so abhorrent but what I find really dumb is they'd rather co- sleep and risk SIDs or else they think it's fine that their baby never gets a decent sleep. I actually think they're being selfish to do that (maybe they like being "needed"?) for some weird reason to make themselves feel better, it's very odd

You are being unreasonable for saying that it is the fault of attachment parenting, when it is clearly some posters on a FB group who are perhaps misrepresenting the concept.

I found attachment parenting an absolute life saver, having a high needs first baby: the relief in knowing that there was a name for what I was instinctively doing in order to keep my baby secure and regulated was immense. I followed my intuition a lot with DD1: my approach did not come from a book, but it was obvious that it worked for us, and that 'doing it' in a more conventional way just upset us all. Finding out that feeding on demand, carrying DD close to me, cosleeping etc formed part of an established parenting model -attachment parenting- was coincidental. But it kept us relaxed, well rested and comfortable.

So we did exactly the same with DC2.

I have 5 children aged 8 years-8 weeks. So there hasn’t been a massive amount of sleep over the last few years. However, I do think it helps to find ways to make it work a bit better. I’ve never seen the sense in having 2 tired parents so I’ve never asked my husband to get up during the night while I’m on maternity leave or breastfeeding. Instead, I’d much rather he did the school run with the older ones to let me sleep on. Or let me nap when he gets in from work. I baby wear a lot as it helps to get things done and it’s also helped my babies fall into a bit of a routine early on. My 8 week old is already in something of a loose routine as she is used to us going to the school/nursery at certain times, being in the sling for me to cook at certain times etc. so she is already sleeping for decent stretches during the day and overnight. Each baby got easier and easier sleep wise. Whereas my eldest didn’t have that structure and took years to sleep well.
I don’t think there is a one size fits all approach though and it’s about what’s best for your own well-being.