To think that responsive/attachment parenting doesn't give a flying fuck about maternal wellbeing?

[Santaslittlehelper83]

....or the family unit. I recently joined the fb group 'Beyond Sleep Training' as was interested in some different ideas for managing our babies frequent night awakenings. CIO/CC is not for me but I'm not adverse to more gentler methods of ST. I was really disturbed by some posts by quite clearly desperate mums, and the advice in a nutshell seemed to boil down to....'that's normal baby behaviour, deal with it!' There was to be fair some advice re tweaking routines etc, and messages of solidarity but nothing else. A lot of posters were referencing their toddlers/preschoolers who hadn't slept more than 2 hours consecutively since birth...on what planet is that helpful to a sleep deprived mum at the end of her rope!? I think it was almost competetive, like a token of honour with generally a lot of sneering towards families who chose a different approach. I also didn't see the logic of lumping all sleep training methods together....someone sensibly suggested removing nipple gently when baby finished night feed to avoid this becoming a sleep association....this was shot down by a very heavy handed post by the admin.

Of course babies needs are paramount, but Mums (and Dads) matter too.

And I say that as a co-sleeping breastfeeding mother who advocates for both practices, when they are appropriate and conducive to the wellbeing of the mother.

Baby 1 slept through the night the day she was born 🤦‍♀️ I didn’t know I was born. Within days she was going 10 pm until 7 am and I was told to wake her up more, (I didn’t) nothing wrong with her and at aged 15 she’s not suffered at all.

Baby 2 is 9 and has never slept through - ever. Man alive didn’t sleep for longer than 20 mins for the first 6 weeks - how we both survived I don’t know - the child had to be on me, the dog or his sister with us sleeping upright to sleep for said 20 minutes. Bugger me. I still don’t sleep through. Tonight he’s gone to bed with a Labrador and I bet a million pound that within 4 hours eg 1 am he will be in here tucked up in my arms - nothing I can do - I could leave him to scream or let me tuck himself in quietly - but I don’t know how long it will take him not to come in

A group normalising normal infant sleep habits, cosleeping, the family bed, promoting intimacy between couples despite the previous two, following your instincts and ignoring the prevailing culture for trying to shape babies to fit modern convenience isn’t a bad thing. Over 100,000 people seem to find it useful.

Absolutely nothing normal about a 3 year old waking several times every night. Nothing.

I fell into this because it was what worked for me and my children. As long as they were physically close to me they only ever woke briefly in the night and never woke screaming. My instinct was to be close to them, so we were lucky that what suited them suited me too. If they’d been waking every hour crying I’d have assumed it wasn’t working for them and tried something else, because sleep deprivation sucks.

Families are all different and I realise how lucky I was that we had that match in our instincts and I’d encourage anyone who is feeling the same way to use the same methods as I did. I don’t know how well I’d have coped with waking every hour to a screaming baby, so I have no advice to give to someone in that situation except do what you have to to get through it.

I was the reverse. I was set for baby-led, and ended up saying nightly prayers to Gina Ford.

I spend every single waking second with my children until they went to school. They and I did not need to spend our nights together as well.

I was a very, very good mother to my children when they were little. In order to do this, I needed to have had a reasonable night's sleep. Their well-being was dependent on my well-being. I had absolutely no help at all, which was another reason for me to be in a fit state to look after my children properly.

This just isn't true.

Try different sleep techniques or sleep training, and most babies sleep through the night or with only one waking aged 7 - 12 months.

Too many parents subscribing to be martyrs.

Absolutely. People harp on and on about the 'evidence' that sleep training permanently damages babies, of which is there is none, but they don't want to talk so much about the very clear and uncontroversial evidence that poor maternal mental health has a negative impact on child outcomes.

This for me too. And also that sleep in the right quantities and depths is a good thing. You know how groggy you feel if you have a bad night where you wake up 2, 3, 4 times? Why the jimmy would you have a young, growing child go through that?

I have friends who are attachment/gentle parents and I listen and empathise (I think?) when they tell me that the toddler/three year old was up 6+ times the night before, but I do quietly think it is sometimes self-inflicted. I had an incredibly poor sleeper who clung like a limpet to every prop - and he is a twin, sharing a bedroom with his twin who obviously can't yet control her own noise levels - but with consistency we got there and he was sleeping through by 1. Happier more settled child, certainly happier parents.

But you can at least try to do something about it - you can sleep train. It doesn't work for every single baby by any means, but it is absolutely something you can try.

Similarly, I began to actually fear I would kill myself or someone else on my commute. To be fair, it was actually MN that convinced me it was time to Do Something. About a week later DS1 was sleeping through the night, the world was a happier place and I was able to actually be an effective and joyful parent.

YANBU at all.
It's actually disturbing how the mother, and the parents in general, are completely disconsidered in this kind of thinking. Like they're not even human, relative to the baby / toddler.

Who do there have to be such polarised views on this issue? Can’t there be routine and structure to make a child feel safe and secure, while still responsively meeting all needs?

I’m far from a perfect parent, given that both DDs are below average sleepers but we have always striven for a balance. We had bedtime routines in place from early on but never ever left them to cry. DD1 at age 4 goes to sleep by herself and sleeps through bar night terrors, loo trips and the odd random early wake. DD2 at 19mo happily goes to sleep by herself but wakes in the early hours, evicts DH from the big bed and sleeps with/on me until morning.

I get so confused about all these different approaches. I thought most people were like us, keen to get them down independently for an evening of peace but accepting that there will be a degree of night wakes and bedhopping for years to come.

Honestly
I've been at this shit for 5 years now
I have a 5 year old and nearly 2 year old.
It's done me no favours
No favours whatsoever

I cry at the rods I've made for my own back

Responsive parenting is vital for a child’s well-being and development. Attachment to caregivers is really important.

I think the main issue here is the Facebook groups/ social media and a misunderstanding and misrepresentation of what responsiveness and attachment is. It’s often tied in with selling an idea of a certain lifestyle, and all the accoutrements and books that come with it. Some people are easily influenced and lap it up

A child’s relationship with their caregivers should be provide them with a secure base, and adults should be consistent in meeting children’s needs. Although this can mostly be child led, it doesn’t mean that this approach should be completely non interventionist on the parents side.

It is still responsive to put routines and boundaries can be put in place when age appropriate to meet the needs of children.

OMG yes!

I contributed to this article in January as it's something I feel so strongly about www.glamourmagazine.co.uk/article/sleep-deprivation-new-mums-suicide

Of course you should meet all of your child's needs, but not at the expense of your own physical or mental health. Especially when there are things you can do to support your child in a gentle and responsive way.

YABU
Whatever is on the fb group 'Beyond Sleep Training' isn’t attachment/responsive parenting. I’ve never seen that fb group but they sound demented.

I did attachment/responsive parenting and mum & dad well-being were part and parcel of it. For example, the hormones we secrete when nursing or bottle feeding (even Dads), are hormones that reduce stress and help us feel good- which you need when you have a crying poop and vomit generating tiny human autocrat taking over your life. The same with cuddling or holding the baby- gives you endorphin rushes that counter the fatigue. It’s why we carried our babies everywhere. They were never in one of those pop out, pop in car seats that go from car to pram. They came out the car seat and into a sling or against body baby carrier. There’s a lot of good in attachment parenting, so I would encourage you to not think one FB group = the actual parenting style.

YANBU. I remember venting to some friends about how little sleep I was getting during the 4 month regression and it turned into a competition of how little sleep they got when their kids were young. One told me hers woke her up every night until he was seven.

Wtf, a simple assurance that it gets better would have been nice.

I think alot of people don't realise or care that sleep deprivation is actually a form of torture.

My sister had a go at me for looking at a gentle sleep training book. My first didn't sleep for the first year. I ended up with severe postnatal depression, my relationship suffered and I was at breaking point. She was talking out her arse, as others have said there is plenty between allowing a baby everything they want and cio

YANBU I joined that group and left (or maybe I was chucked out). CIO & CC are not for me, however, there is a middle ground.
I sleep trained and night weaned mine without every leaving them to cry alone. I don't think our job as parents is to stop all upset but to be there support our children through it.

Oh completely.

Not been in that group, but I felt so guilty and ashamed about not being able to handle 6 wakes a night for months and not loving co-sleeping - which did not in fact lead miraculously to better sleep for DS, just to me being on edge and uncomfortable even when he wasn't awake.

I didn't sleep train but I did make structured changes to our routine and to how I help DS to sleep, which have quite quickly helped to reduce his night waking. He's still not a "good" sleeper, but I'd say he's within 1 standard deviation of average.

The idea that whatever your child does at night is just part of normal baby sleep so you need to suck it up nearly broke me.

Reading this made me sad. Life doesn't have to be shit looking after a baby, and if it feels that bad, help or solutions or a different method are definitely required.

I'm in that group and for me it is validating because I breastfeed to sleep and there's no issue with that.

But it works both ways, I was in another group about safe sleep, very American, I can't remember the name but you had to submit a picture of your babies sleep space with any post so the admins could judge if you were practicing safe enough sleep (and it was only safe if you had your cot pretty much in the middle of the room with open space all around it) and they were so offensively rude about any form of attachment parenting.

Anyone who breastfed was a lactivist or a 'mummy martyr' and all our babies were definitely going to die of SIDs, it was really awful.

For me the martyrdom was going by the book and trying sleep training and whatever else because that's what you do and everyone said I should. Including gp and HV (she also had reflux which took ages to finally be listened to and given help with) .It was a horrible time with everyone miserable, no one sleeping, both me and DD crying. Then I eventually said fuck it we're cosleeping and she actually slept and so did we.

All babies are different, all families are different. Do whatever works.

Of course you should meet all of your child's needs, but not at the expense of your own physical or mental health. Especially when there are things you can do to support your child in a gentle and responsive way. @lavenderbluesleep this exactly.

Thanks for responses all. I agree that I shouldn't judge a whole style of parenting from one fb group, and perhaps don't fully understand the ethos. Of course life changes and we make huge sacrifices for our children, I think I was just so struck by the complete disregard of Mum and Dad, as someone said even as human beings that have their own essential basic needs (ie enough sleep to safely function).

Anyway, my own baby who normally wakes every 90 mins is actually asleep, so I need to get my head down myself!

WTF? I've had three babies. My life wasn't shit when they were babies, is was bloody fantastic. Literally the best time of my life. Probably helped that I wasn't permanently exhausted. I reckon that they preferred having a happy well rested mum who gently sleep trained them, rather than an exhausted depressed mum.

Same here, I was set for a routine, ended up baby led. I don't know how it happened but it actually made me less stressed even though normally I plan everything.
This matches my experience too. I didn't need the right expert's schedule or routine or approach. I just needed to listen to my DC and go with the new rhythm of life. If that meant slowing down, some lazy mornings, not being up and out for the 9.30 sensory class then that's ok.

So much support around mothers is lacking, which can make it harder for parents to be responsive on sleep. There's not always a community of older mother's or mothers who are a few years in to bounce ideas off, or people who'll help out in a practical way, Vs the 'help out' by holding the baby and expecting mum to make everyone a brew.

Yes I was all over the attachment parenting but became very depressed to the point of having suicidal thoughts by the time dd was 6/7 months old. So we did some sleep training because it was better for dd to have an alive mother, not wanting to be flippant about it. I felt terrible guilt at the time though.