To think that responsive/attachment parenting doesn't give a flying fuck about maternal wellbeing?

[Santaslittlehelper83]

....or the family unit. I recently joined the fb group 'Beyond Sleep Training' as was interested in some different ideas for managing our babies frequent night awakenings. CIO/CC is not for me but I'm not adverse to more gentler methods of ST. I was really disturbed by some posts by quite clearly desperate mums, and the advice in a nutshell seemed to boil down to....'that's normal baby behaviour, deal with it!' There was to be fair some advice re tweaking routines etc, and messages of solidarity but nothing else. A lot of posters were referencing their toddlers/preschoolers who hadn't slept more than 2 hours consecutively since birth...on what planet is that helpful to a sleep deprived mum at the end of her rope!? I think it was almost competetive, like a token of honour with generally a lot of sneering towards families who chose a different approach. I also didn't see the logic of lumping all sleep training methods together....someone sensibly suggested removing nipple gently when baby finished night feed to avoid this becoming a sleep association....this was shot down by a very heavy handed post by the admin.

Of course babies needs are paramount, but Mums (and Dads) matter too.

It is up to the parents how they parent, no one else is to blame

I parent this way with my youngest. Eldest was sleep trained through the CIO method, and slept through from a very early age.
I jave had very little interaction with the attachment parenting groups, because I know that a lot of the advice given would be less than helpful.
.I think as a society we do not focus of maternal health, physical, or mental enough.

I think its always best to almost lead with a concern for how other mums are doing, and creating a space where its always safe to admit that its a struggle, and there are easier ways of doing things, but also celebrating eachothers achievements.

It's hard, and we need to be more real with one another

Never joined these groups but do think the idea a baby can’t cry
/ be left or is emotionally damaged is so toxic. They have to learn to self settle it’s part of emotional regulation and sleep linking.

A lot of groups are very extremist and some of the mums seem nuts. Not just this parental group, but most others too. The other side of militant mothers are just as extremist.

I'm not keen on such groups who cite attachment parenting or sears, but mainly because the mums that sprout it take it to the extreme. To me there has to be a balance, of not focusing on the child, focusing on the mother just as much. None of us as individuals are that important.

But the opposite of attachment is apparently, has to apparently be detachment, which is even more vile, why use such a nasty word? Whereas I would prefer it not so child led, had a different name rather than detachment because I don't that is fitting either.

Can anyone recommend groups that are the opposite of attachment parenting ?

I have a very clingy 8 mo and am losing my mind at carrying him all day. So far advice has been 'give him what he needs' but I'm going crazy and I NEED to be able to put him down for 5-10 mins whilst I'm doing chores.

Our whole household is suffering because of my mental state, as a result of a baby who demands to be held all the time.

I also joined and left the group after a very passive aggressive comment on one of my posts from one of their admin. I had said that I moved baby into their own room at just under 5 months for various reasons, but forgot to caveat it with the fact I was aware that it was against guidance, so received the comment from the moderator. I left because although they were very quick to pick up on my comment, they completely ignored the massive post from a mother who essentially slept in a 'postnatal nest' (an out house in the garden), with her husband working/gaming from another outhouse, leaving her other 2 kids in the main house alone, in her words 'crying and scared'. Some very strange practices on that page...

I do want to caveat my post by saying I did actually find lots of helpful information in the group, especially around sleep cycles, the possums approach, and watching for baby's sleep cues.

Says who? This is another thing I hate to see of those groups. Co sleeping doesn’t work for everyone, why do people presume it does because it did for them? My baby woke every hour until she was a year old, whether we were co sleeping or not. Every single bit of advice I got was to co sleep

I honestly don't know what is so wrong with sleep training . Virtually every adult you know, would have been brought up that way. I don't think we were all mentally damaged because we weren't allowed to deprive our parents of sleep .

I think it’s a form of OCD and insecurity. ‘If I do X and Y then I will be a better mother than the others, and my child is will be more okay’. There are so many factors out of our control as parents I think some like to convince themselves that’s it’s ALL down to parenting and if they just do things in this ‘special way’ then they won’t have the same worries. It’s also just an identity for a load of bored ‘home educating’ mums, a sense of belonging and being relevant.

I would wonder also about it being ‘best’ for the baby to barely sleep. My child is a bad sleeper and constantly exhausted/yawning/cranky from the minute they wake up. It’s clear more sleep is needed. I am going to start stay and support sleep training now baby is 8 months and think it will be better for the baby’s mood, development and brain to get a proper sleep and to be able to resettle back to sleep herself.

I think attachment / gentle / responsive all gets lumped in and certainly the word attachment gets thrown around not in the context that it’s meant.

All a baby needs is a ‘good enough’ mother. I code for is you only have to get it right 50% of the time for a secure attachment to be formed. You really don’t need to self flagellate and behave like some robotic humanoid with no needs of their own.
Also, women have other things like their jobs and other children too, they can’t just suck it up 24/7 for years.

I am responsive and my daughter clearly demonstrates her secure attachment to me. However I also sleep trained her- using the stay and support approach. She was crying for hours co- sleeping as she was just so dog tired- it was not working anymore. At 1 we implemented the approach and at first I stayed with her and stroked her hair and sang to her next to the cot- but emphasised that cot time meant sleep time. She has slept through or only had one night wake up since and I’m a much better and interactive mother in the day when I’ve had some sleep.

There's a book called it's never too late to sleep train'.
My son, not dramatic, nearly killed me. Waking every 45 minutes for 18 months. Tried everything. Surrounded by gentle parent martrs and to my shame took their advice which looking back ended up with some pretty risky Sids behaviour, like falling asleep with baby on me due to tiredness. Pnd very severely. Marriage nearly ended.

Sleep trained using methods in that book. Within two weeks he slept and I felt terrible about subjecting my baby to such poor sleep on the alter of gentle parenting for months. Once he slept he was a different child and clearly had suffered just as much as I.
I usually private message this recommendation as get eaten alive if recommend anything other than suck it up buttercup on threads.
Gentle parenting friends are now suffering still well in lto toddler years. I have no regrets. Apart from not doing it sooner.

@FleurthChampion yes we sleep trained at 3.5 months. He sleeps 12 hours straight since.
My problem is he can't be put down during the day, ever. Even if he's near me and I'm cooking, he'll scream so I've got hold him.
I need him to learn to be ok to be my himself for a little, during the day.

@FleurthChampion oh and just ignore people who do different to you.
I don't give a f telling people i sleep trained at 3.5 months. They can foam at the mouth telling me it can only be done from 6 months minimum. I'll just laugh and go enjoy my 12 hour rest whilst my 8 mo baby sleeps through with no wake ups.

My child was like that for the first 9 months or so. In his case it turns out he is neurodiverse, so in hindsight reading some books on that might have helped.
If I was having the same again I'd possibly find trouble.shooting potentially sensory issues might make a difference and exploring what self soothing works for.him. But realise that is my child and what works for him doesn't work for everyone. Sorry to not have more practical advice. I will have a think and see if there's anything else I remember that helped. Sadly for most of it I just rode it out.
What I can say is it does get better (although as mine is neurodiverse we.are slower down the track in terms of creating independence.

There are a lot or similar groups on FB. Some of the sling/babywearing groups can be similar. Also homebirth groups (and I say this as a person who coslept, used slings and had a homebirth).

I get it in some ways though- mine were both awful sleepers and we tried everything. Literally everything. None of it worked. Co sleeping was at least a way for it not to work while still lying down. I went back to work at 6 months both times and was losing it. I used to fall asleep standing up.

In response, I can see why groups like that are reassuring to new mothers- you're constantly being told it must be you and there's something else you should do- there's some reassurance in a group of people who've decided just to accept it, who are online in the middle of the night for chats, and who are also told 'they just need a good bedtime routine' constantly (oh how we laughed, the bedtime routine was on-point, it was the next 12 hours that were the problem). Both cracking sleepers now by the way.

It will all fade away into insignificance by the time their children start school. Maternal martyrdom is not new- we've just put it on Facebook now. Especially during the pandemic, the isolation of a lot.of new parents is a problem, but put something on Facebook and it immediately becomes reductive and polarised.

Also like @FleurthChampion my eldest turned out to be neurodiverse- if we'd have known that there's other stuff I would have considered. DC2 is not ND though and was even worse, for longer.

Oh and finally - I do think normal infant sleep, especially in the first 3 months, is not communicated well enough to people - and that you probably wouldnt understand how brutal it is even if it was (and this is especially true if you are breastfeeding and need to be the one to wake). A lot of well meaning advice from the older generation has blocked out their own memory that most (not all, but that's just luck) babies are awake at night a lot early on. And so the first three months you need to dial back and rest when you can, especially as you're physically recovering. If I did it again I'd really plan for that, not feel the need to leg it to baby yoga etc etc.

I know what you mean. For me I got a kind of sneering response when I said I wanted my baby in a routine as if those who wanted that were harsh and controlling. I needed that for my sanity, everyone is different. In the end I went to the library and got every book on sleep and built a day routine by closely watching my baby’s pattern/cues for two weeks and following from there.

That's so sad to read, and I'm sorry it was your experience. I didn't find life with young children shit, at all. I bottle fed and sleep trained. Really enjoyed the early months and years.

That's literally what sleep training does.

You poor thing. It's not too late to sleep train now! There are good books on this x

@HandScreen but it doesn't always. If it worked for you, amazing, and it's worth a try. But I'm definitely not the only one of my friends who tried to implement more than one method (yes, properly) with no positive results whatsoever.

I joined that group too but I left it because it sorta brought me down hearing about the parents complaining about lack of sleep when I too was lacking sleep lol.

My second born, who is currently two, was never a good sleeper. We bed shared from about 4 months onwards ( safely. There are ways. I’ve seen others post links ). Anyway he’s in his own bed now and sometimes sleeps through the night but also sometimes crawls into my bed at 4am. I don’t know if I would have survived without bed-sharing. I was desperate and the cry it out method wasn’t for me . Weirdly I don’t think badly of the cry it out method for others . You do what works for you in the end !