To think that responsive/attachment parenting doesn't give a flying fuck about maternal wellbeing?

[Santaslittlehelper83]

....or the family unit. I recently joined the fb group 'Beyond Sleep Training' as was interested in some different ideas for managing our babies frequent night awakenings. CIO/CC is not for me but I'm not adverse to more gentler methods of ST. I was really disturbed by some posts by quite clearly desperate mums, and the advice in a nutshell seemed to boil down to....'that's normal baby behaviour, deal with it!' There was to be fair some advice re tweaking routines etc, and messages of solidarity but nothing else. A lot of posters were referencing their toddlers/preschoolers who hadn't slept more than 2 hours consecutively since birth...on what planet is that helpful to a sleep deprived mum at the end of her rope!? I think it was almost competetive, like a token of honour with generally a lot of sneering towards families who chose a different approach. I also didn't see the logic of lumping all sleep training methods together....someone sensibly suggested removing nipple gently when baby finished night feed to avoid this becoming a sleep association....this was shot down by a very heavy handed post by the admin.

Of course babies needs are paramount, but Mums (and Dads) matter too.

I don’t know what other mums do, apart from my friends (who are mostly doing it differently to me) but just did what I thought was right, from the beginning. For all of us. Haven’t read any books or joined any groups (online or IRL). I was on MN before my baby, and mostly enjoy other topics than child-rearing. I’m not sure if I’m doing anything right, but my son is happy.

I’m doing attachment / co-sleeping etc, but none of it was a conscious decision. Luckily I don’t have any PND (I’ve never had MH issues) but I’ve found being close to my baby so rewarding. But that’s just my experience. I wouldn’t recommend that anyone else do the same.

@Babooshka1990

converseandjeans you must be very out of touch as the current guidance is that babies should exclusively breastfed for the first 6 months, research shows that giving them other food before this can cause lifelong digestive problems.

What about larger babies who are very hungry. Surely this should be based more on the size of the baby? Is it sensible to continue with no solids if baby is starving hungry and waking up constantly due to not ever being full? It's no good for anyone if a 5 month old is aware every hour needing food. Should a new Mum expect to get no sleep to feed every hour?

I was back teaching at this point - no way would I have been safe getting baby & toddler ready, driving to work, working all day, doing evening routine, marking books & prepping, sorting house out had I been up every hour or two breastfeeding. Which is I think the point of the thread. Mums are being encouraged to follow the baby led ideology which is great if you don't have to work. I didn't go back to work by choice and there are lots of judgmental comments about Mums who focus on getting a decent night sleep. I did give mine baby rice around 4 months & they don't have any digestive problems at all. They did sleep well & I don't think that should be seen as a bad thing!

I agree. Two of my babies were big and they would have been so hungry just on milk at 5 months. No digestive issues at all starting solids at this age.

No one’s hiring a sleep consultant if they’re perfectly happy with their situation though!

Night waking might be ‘normal’ but when it’s excessive beyond the first few months and no one’s getting enough sleep (including baby) that means it’s gone very wrong.

The other thing is that babies were put to sleep in their own rooms earlier also there were no baby monitors when mine were little 30 years ago so parents naturally didn’t react do much to a restless baby. Having said that they still didn’t always sleep well

@Tiddler39

I agree. Two of my babies were big and they would have been so hungry just on milk at 5 months. No digestive issues at all starting solids at this age.

I don't know why people can't see that a large 5 month old is desperate for more food! It wouldn't be ok to withhold from an older child so why is it ok for babies 🤷🏻‍♀️

Because a baby does not need food at 5 months, an older child does. Size doesn't come into it, a 5 month old should be having milk only.

If a baby wants more food, give them more milk.

People saying their child was given food early and has no digestive issues - how old are those children? These issues usually do not show until adulthood but there is a clear established link between early weaning and digestive problems later in life. And of course 100% of children weaned early won't have problems, just like I have massive digestive issues and I wasn't weaned early. But those children weaned early will be more likely to suffer from them.

But 6 months is a completely arbitrary cut-off point.

Who decided that? Is it the same Department of Health that universally recommends 2000 calories per day for everyone?

And does that mean that my baby will be harmed by having solids at 5 months and 30 days old but will be fine to have them the next day?

Can you now see how ridiculous it is?

And while we’re at it, aren’t we here just introducing another ‘rule’ to stress mums out, which is exactly what the baby-led movement is supposed to be against?

When it came to solids I was actually led by my babies - I offered them solids when they started to wake earlier again and started staring at everything that went in my mouth showing an interest in everything I was eating.

In that case was my baby wrong?

You can’t have it both ways.

My child was also v hungry at 5 months and needed solids in addition to the milk. There's no magic about feeding them milk for exactly 6 months. It's a guideline.

@wherethecityis

If a baby wants more food, give them more milk.

And here is what the OP was originally about. Are you saying Mums should be exclusively breastfeeding and up & down all night? What about the wellbeing of the Mum? This is why so many suffer due to the ongoing sleeplessness. First it's when they are newborn, then the famous 4 month sleep regression & then now a further 2 months of endless wake ups?

I would hazard a guess that the 4 month sleep regression is hunger related hence the time to start solids was traditionally 4 months. Probably to avoid the 4 month regression.

I think as long as they are fed and get a decent sleep then that's a good start. Nobody really cares how they were fed once they start school. It's just another way to make other Mums feel guilty.

@Tiddler39

And while we’re at it, aren’t we here just introducing another ‘rule’ to stress mums out, which is exactly what the baby-led movement is supposed to be against?

Yes agreed. Just another thing to stress Mums out 🤷🏻‍♀️

Absolutely this.

And how could anyone possibly know that a 40-year-old’s digestive issues are due to them being weaned at 4 months instead of 6?

My DD was a 37 weeker. We were told to wean her at 6 months so 5 months adjusted 🤷🏼‍♀️ when you consider a baby born at 38 weeks will be weaned a whole month ‘earlier’ than a 42 weeker it shows how little difference it makes.

My family are very very strong breastfeeding advocates. Very strong. All the babies have been breastfed - a single drop of formula has never passed my lips, nor my 4 siblings and many cousins. We even have weird myths in the family like ‘if you don’t breastfeed they’ll get weird bandy legs’ and ‘formula makes their heads swell up, that’s why some babies have very big heads’.

The irony is we are the unhealthiest bunch of people you could ever meet. I don’t know any other family bar those with hereditary conditions that have the poor health we do. Most of the adults are obese. Almost all on anti depressants. We are absolutely riddled with autoimmune conditions - I’m type 1 diabetic, we also have lupus, rheumatoid arthritis, coeliac, intolerances, asthma, eczema, thyroid issues.

Now, a sample of one family isn’t ‘data’ but I find it almost comical how my family bang on about the ‘terrible health of formula babies’ while completely overlooking the fact we have almost every condition that breastmilk is supposed to protect against!

I have found that almost all groups I've participated in that took an AP approach were like this. Which is too bad as there are elements of it I think are positive.

But there was a real tendency to be very blase about mothers well being, and often a failure to understand that babies needs and capacities change - you don't need to treat a one year old like an infant and it isn't even good for the baby to do so.

And that was the third thing. A lot of the problems in AP come down to an assumption that babies, toddlers, and children will simply be able to know what is best for them and develop good habits by letting them be. It's a kind of "natural man" fallacy. It is not always the case. I always remember one mum in a group for nursing older babies who was shocked when I suggested a cure for biting was to just put the baby down for a bit as soon as it happened., and soon it would not happen much and the whole thing would be better for them both. She thought that you could not put any boundaries on nursing, ever, without risking mental issues in the child. Mothers, in her view, couldn't even have that level of bodily integrity with a toddler.

Sleep is similar. Many babies, once they get to a certain age, will be much better off if you can get them into a good sleeping routine. Not that it's ever perfect, but I've seen with my own four that going from waking every hour and a bit to nurse, to sleeping through a much longer period, made them much happier over all, totally apart what it did for me. But they needed help to get there.

@converseandjeans not necessarily. Someone else can give them a bottle of milk as long as the child will accept that and there is someone else who is there and able to.

6 months isn't just an arbitrary cut-off point, it's based on studies just like any link between an illness and environmental factor is. If someone gets to 5 months and is struggling because their child is sleeping badly and they think giving food will help, it's not that long to wait until the child is old enough according to guidelines.

Those same studies all show that there is a link between digestive issues and early weaning. Of course you can't say that a 40 year olds digestive problems were definitely due to being weaned at 4 months, but you can say they were more likely to suffer those problems in the first place because of being weaned early.

I appreciate it might be hard. I was back at work when my DD was 4 months old, and she didn't sleep more than 45 mins at a time until over a year later. It almost killed me and I tried lots of things and would encourage other mums in a similar position to try other things too; co-sleeping if it helps, even sleep training if it helps, but I still wouldn't have risked her health by giving her food early in the hope she'd sleep better. And when we did introduce food, she ate really well but still didn't sleep any better.

@wherethecityis

Honestly I think that you were mad to continue with only milk when your baby was waking every hour! Surely it was a sign they needed more? I guess it's up to you but I don't know you would have been safe to drive/work/look after a baby with almost no sleep.

It's just another example of women being encouraged to do something which can be detrimental to their wellbeing.

I think it's a case of getting the balance - a baby getting no sleep & bring constantly hungry would be cranky and exhausted. I don't consider this ideal. A well fed and well rested baby means a happy baby and a Mum who can also feel relaxed and happy?

@wherethecityis

she didn't sleep more than 45 mins at a time until over a year later. It almost killed me and I tried lots of things

This doesn't sound like an enjoyable experience of your baby's first year. I don't think other Mums should be encouraged to endure this.

Those same studies all show that there is a link between digestive issues and early weaning.

I think this is another case where things get unreasonably polarised. Early weaning in scientific literature doesn't mean before 6 months it means before 17 weeks, so before 4 months.

The NHS weaning guidelines say "around 6 months" and BLW talks about signs of readiness for solids. It's not as black and white as anything before 6 months is harmful.

I don’t think babies wake up hourly because of hunger after BF or formula feed is “stablished” (ofc it happens with newborns). What I think happens is baby sleep streches get better as weeks go by as its stomach is growing so can go longer periods without food. Then around 4 months there’s the damn sleep regression and baby starts asking for boob to link sleep cycles and start waking every hour and some people say it’s hunger, but even on a liquid diet they don’t need hourly feeds. Once they learn to link sleep cycles without external help they are back to sleep longer stretches again.

I've gone through all the different approaches with my son. Co slept for a while (which worked great until he became such a night mover/fidget he would wake me up while staying asleep himself+ started waking 6 times a night anyway), lots of gentle sleep training (which worked for a time until it didn't and we could spend hours rocking, shushing, patting with him not sleeping and lots of crying), and finally in desperation CIO when he was waking every 45 mins at 7 months and taking hours to get back to sleep. Turns out that what he needed was to be left alone to fall asleep, and it rarely takes more than 10 mins for him to nod off now. He will still sometimes cry for a few minutes before falling asleep, but he wakes only once or twice in the night crying and when he does I feed him. The idea that I could have survived all these months with wakes every 45 mins is ludicrous. I was so unhappy and had a permanent headache. He is also so much happier in the day now he's well rested.

Basically every baby is an individual and you have to do what works, but to my mind what works needs to work for you both. No baby does well for long with a permanently exhausted mother on the verge of a mental breakdown (or actually having one). I think any group/website/person who ignores that isn't worth your time.

Glad you got this sorted out @Kiopa

Another story that shows that babies often just need to be left alone to fall asleep.

Im interested to know what you would do with a newborn now, if you had another one?