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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Wow just wow. AIBU to think MH is a complete tw*t

423 replies

Moonshine86 · 01/03/2023 21:10

Words fail me

Wow just wow. AIBU to think MH is a complete tw*t
OP posts:
BashirWithTheGoodBeard · 02/03/2023 12:01

But to be fair to them, the message put out was that COVID was a killer and that anyone could end up on a ventilator, it was too dangerous to sit on a park bench and so on, when these leaks now show that the government new that the risk to under 65s was negligible.

Yes, none of this came from nowhere. When the government pursue a deliberate policy of trying to make people feel themselves to be at higher risk, there are going to be consequences to that.

CurlyhairedAssassin · 02/03/2023 12:55

saleorbouy · 02/03/2023 06:19

There were alot of professions that were expected and had to keep working otherwise day to day life would have collapsed. She hospitals and support services remained open, shops and the the supply chains etc.
I understand teacher concerns but the unions didn't do you profession any favours when many were stepping up to the plate and still had to balance life around homeschooling kids.

So you were an essential worker? Essential workers' children were in school.

TheFireflies · 02/03/2023 13:12

CurlyhairedAssassin · 02/03/2023 12:55

So you were an essential worker? Essential workers' children were in school.

Yes. Being taught. By teachers. Who were also having to manage remote learning.

CurlyhairedAssassin · 02/03/2023 13:15

twitterexile · 02/03/2023 08:24

people don’t want to be teachers because it’s underpaid and the schools are underfunded which creates massive pressures. Not every teaching post will be bad but many are, and that’s why we have a crisis in recruitment

I don't think that teaching is badly paid. It is poor behaviour and ridiculous workload that is putting people off.

But if we had more teachers and support staff in schools each person's workload would be slightly less. Not loads, but enough to make a difference to the "I can't do this job anymore" feeling that they all get at some point each week. More staff also equals closer supervision of pupils = better behaviour. It's a vicious circle. We just need more staff and then the job would be back to being bearable again. You're not going to recruit support staff if they actually can't afford to live on the paltry salary they earn. So salaries need to go up to enable this. It's a multi-faceted problem.

CurlyhairedAssassin · 02/03/2023 13:18

TheFireflies · 02/03/2023 13:12

Yes. Being taught. By teachers. Who were also having to manage remote learning.

Er. I know. Confused

TheFireflies · 02/03/2023 13:19

CurlyhairedAssassin · 02/03/2023 13:18

Er. I know. Confused

I was just adding to your response to the PP

twelly · 02/03/2023 13:34

If we accept that the lockdowns and remote teaching and all the other issues were not the responsibility of teachers or the unions - and look at actually what did happen I think the way may teachers behaved is even more unproffessional. Online lessons were often cut short, badly prepared and often didn't happen at all. Work was not marked and feedback often lacking. At primary I understand that online is more difficult but secondary and particularly GCSE and A level was in many cases appalling, teacher grades really mean that the teachers were not accountable. I accept there are many hardworking and talented teachers but during the pandemic there were many, many examples of teachers who just did as little as possible and some of have continued to do this. It is such a pity that some of those who are now shouting the loudest were those who did the least over that time period.

Cornettoninja · 02/03/2023 13:37

It is such a pity that some of those who are now shouting the loudest were those who did the least over that time period

brings to mind a fair few MP’s.

noblegiraffe · 02/03/2023 13:48

It is such a pity that some of those who are now shouting the loudest were those who did the least over that time period.

Who are you talking about?

I accept there are many hardworking and talented teachers but during the pandemic there were many, many examples of teachers who just did as little as possible and some of have continued to do this.

Do you think that this has changed since the pandemic? Do you think that every child is now being taught by a dedicated, hardworking, qualified teacher just because they’re in school?

Staff shortages are at a crisis level. Many children in schools are having an inadequate education experience. Parents got a glimpse of educational inequality during covid and were angry. Now they seem to think that it’s gone away? Or that teacher strikes are entirely separate to this awful situation where children are being failed?

twelly · 02/03/2023 14:18

In answer to the point made:

Yes, shouting the loudest could also I agree be applied to MPs

I think there were many in the teaching profession who thought the way they used covid as a reason to do little really discredited the profession. I think there are still staff who have adopted this approach - where it is all covid's fault that the student's don't have the skills and covid's fault the students/pupils are like they.

It is sad as with many professions that this reflects on all staff - I sadly think the number in this category are rising. In a way the education system has led to this - the way exams over the last few decades have put more and more pressure on teachers which quite frankly has led to those leaving school being unable to take responsibility and work independently. There has been a dumbing down of the system and some of those young teachers are lacking in effort, however, the lack of effort during the pandemic was not just young staff. It is very sad that the behaviour of significant proportion of teachers reflect not the profession as a whole.

noblegiraffe · 02/03/2023 14:27

An awful lot of speculation there, twelly, any evidence to back any of it up?

AlecTrevelyan006 · 02/03/2023 14:40

There are many funny and troubling insights to be had in the Hancock messages.

A pervasive theme seems to be using the state of public opinion to justify policy measures.

No great shock to anyone with a brain I suspect.

But what is genuinely very funny is the way that public opinion is spoken of as though it was established in some sort of vaccum.

When you have been on the telly for months peddling doom porn and telling people that crossing their front door risks death, you perhaps have to acknowledge your role in forming public opinion. Banning folk from expressing contrary views via OFCOM rules tends to ensure that you have the media speaking with a unitary voice. Labelling anyone else slipping through those cracks as conspiracy theorists or death mongers may also have an effect on public opinion....

They were formulating policy based on the reinforcing doom loop they created.

It is astounding that not one of them evidently understands this elementary point .

BashirWithTheGoodBeard · 02/03/2023 14:45

AlecTrevelyan006 · 02/03/2023 14:40

There are many funny and troubling insights to be had in the Hancock messages.

A pervasive theme seems to be using the state of public opinion to justify policy measures.

No great shock to anyone with a brain I suspect.

But what is genuinely very funny is the way that public opinion is spoken of as though it was established in some sort of vaccum.

When you have been on the telly for months peddling doom porn and telling people that crossing their front door risks death, you perhaps have to acknowledge your role in forming public opinion. Banning folk from expressing contrary views via OFCOM rules tends to ensure that you have the media speaking with a unitary voice. Labelling anyone else slipping through those cracks as conspiracy theorists or death mongers may also have an effect on public opinion....

They were formulating policy based on the reinforcing doom loop they created.

It is astounding that not one of them evidently understands this elementary point .

Don't understand or don't want to understand....

It puts some of the comments on here about the lifting of restrictions being political in an interesting context, though. It was all political, every bit of it, the things any given individual approved of and the things they didn't. Because it couldn't possibly have been anything else.

AlecTrevelyan006 · 02/03/2023 14:49

indeed - 'follow the science' was never a thing. It was always about 'follow (and influence) public opinion' and then take the most politically expedient decision.

ghostyslovesheets · 02/03/2023 14:59

Skye991422 · 02/03/2023 08:10

As a teacher I’d like to clarify a few points:

  1. not all teachers are young healthy females
  2. schools remained open for vulnerable pupils and children of key workers. Teachers staffed the schools
  3. teachers worked throughout the pandemic under enormous workload and stress
  4. decisions to close or open schools were not made by teachers or unions. Decisions to close schools were not made to protect teachers but to slow the spread. Huge numbers of people together obviously spread it quicker
  5. teachers are not lazy or trying to avoid work. The constant belittling and insulting of teachers is in part, along with years and years of pay cuts, why it’s so difficult to recruit and retain teachers. It’s a demanding job with long hours- marking, planning, reporting, data etc all being done outside of school hours. Many teachers do the job because they care about your children and their education. I can assure you there is not enough financial reward for the long hours, politics, underfunding, behaviour, inadequate SEND provision we have to deal with

Bloody well said - I worked with teachers across schools and colleges all over the UK during both lock downs

They very quickly had to adapt to new ways of doing their job and they did it well. We held meetings via shared phone lines and eventually Teams - vulnerable children that I worked with still had their education supported because staff continued to attend despite added pressure - it was actually very difficult but they did it.

100% support the strikes - teachers do a valuable job and teachers and schools should be properly paid and funded

mn29 · 02/03/2023 15:07

Just wanted to say to all the teachers reading that I appreciate you, recognise how hard you work under difficult circumstances (Covid and years of underfunding) and fully support your strikes, recognising it’s about more than just pay. Please don’t take some of the negative attitudes on this thread to heart, so many of us are grateful!

Vegrocks · 02/03/2023 15:52

mn29 · 02/03/2023 15:07

Just wanted to say to all the teachers reading that I appreciate you, recognise how hard you work under difficult circumstances (Covid and years of underfunding) and fully support your strikes, recognising it’s about more than just pay. Please don’t take some of the negative attitudes on this thread to heart, so many of us are grateful!

You and I were blessed that our children have superb teachers.

but the shit ones pre covid were shit during covid and will likely be shit now.

and from what I gather from friends, family and indeed even 2 very close friends that are teachers - there are a lot of poor teachers out there that sure as heck didn’t cover themselves in glory during covid

cantkeepawayforever · 02/03/2023 16:20

The thing I find tricky to understand is why there is a view that we could have divided the population into separate groups with no contact with each other during Covid, in order to do ‘the best thing’ for each group individually.

So we believe that care homes ‘should have been kept secure’ (to avoid the huge waves of infections and death there) but that schools ‘should have remained open as normal’. Or that ‘the healthy young’ could have lived their normal lives because ‘only the elderly and vulnerable’ are harmed by Covid.

This completely misses the point about chains of transmission of infection - a school child and an elderly person can be cared for by the same adult. A teacher can be married to a care home worker. A school child may have a vulnerable parent. A hospital nurse may carry infection, via their school age child, to their vulnerable classmate.

In the height of the pandemic, what was needed was to look at society as a whole, to look at these links, to consider places and occasions where infection might be most likely to occur, and weigh up the risks as a whole. The fact that someone might not themselves be at risk is not sufficient to allow them to mix freely in a crowded environment such as a school IF as a result they hugely magnify the risk to vulnerable people in society as a whole.

We can argue about whether the government, at all times, got their judgement of ‘the best balance between the interests of different groups’ right, in the context of eg finite and stretched NHS resources. We can also discuss which, if any, countries with similar population density and crowded school estates managed to keep all schools open face to face throughout. I am not saying ‘the UK got it right’ - far from it. Just that the over-simplistic view in hindsight from our well-vaccinated post - Omicron world may not reflect the complexity of the time.

BashirWithTheGoodBeard · 02/03/2023 16:26

The thing I find tricky to understand is why there is a view that we could have divided the population into separate groups with no contact with each other during Covid, in order to do ‘the best thing’ for each group individually

Yes I don't really get that. It had to be a choice about whose welfare to prioritise, which set of downsides we wanted and which groups were going to be pushed down the priority list for the benefit of others.

The impossibility of setting up different discrete groups is also why the tiers system was so stupid.

cantkeepawayforever · 02/03/2023 16:31

Yes, tiers were obviously daft. Schools were unaffected by them, so they somewhat passed me by, but the thinking behind them seemed shaky at best.

QuitsAmidCrisis · 02/03/2023 16:39

Vegrocks · 02/03/2023 15:52

You and I were blessed that our children have superb teachers.

but the shit ones pre covid were shit during covid and will likely be shit now.

and from what I gather from friends, family and indeed even 2 very close friends that are teachers - there are a lot of poor teachers out there that sure as heck didn’t cover themselves in glory during covid

‘but the shit ones pre covid were shit during covid and will likely be shit now.‘

This was true of many professions. NHS nurses, GPs, social workers; I have heard this same story repeated by friends and colleagues. One SW ‘joked’ with me he could have guessed which staff would use covid as an excuse to stay home the whole time. I saw similar in the NHS.

cantkeepawayforever · 02/03/2023 16:42

I can also say that, as a teacher with good knowledge of the families of the children I taught and of my colleagues , I could see the possible chains of transmission to the vulnerable only too clearly and personally, as well as having an extremely up close and personal understanding of exactly how close the contact was between my pupils when in school.

That influenced how reasonable / unreasonable I felt the government’s guidance and actions to be at different points in the pandemic, and how ‘safe’ the school environment was in terms of transmission, regardless of how it was being presented in government PR and guidance.

cantkeepawayforever · 02/03/2023 16:47

Many of the groups who normally support children - Ed Psychs; SaLT; Social Services; specialist advisors for specific SEN, just as examples - completely refused to come into schools at all, long after pupils and teachers were returned to classrooms. This has contributed to the overwhelming workload of teachers post pandemic, as many children have been undiagnosed, and supported only by teachers themselves without specialist input, for much longer than normal.

I don’t blame these groups for considering their personal safety. I know it was an organisational, not personal, judgement.

Everanewbie · 02/03/2023 16:51

QuitsAmidCrisis · 02/03/2023 16:39

‘but the shit ones pre covid were shit during covid and will likely be shit now.‘

This was true of many professions. NHS nurses, GPs, social workers; I have heard this same story repeated by friends and colleagues. One SW ‘joked’ with me he could have guessed which staff would use covid as an excuse to stay home the whole time. I saw similar in the NHS.

Similarly its generally the ones you'd expect that claim to be suffering from 'long Covid'. Its not generally your small business owner and such like.

cantkeepawayforever · 02/03/2023 16:56

Similarly its generally the ones you'd expect that claim to be suffering from 'long Covid'. Its not generally your small business owner and such like.

What evidence do you have for this? Chronic fatigue sufferers - a condition that shares many characteristics with long Covid, so long Covid may be a manifestation of the same disease, numerous because of the pandemic -do not come from a particular group, and severe sufferers often ‘vanish’ from society, home or bed-bound for years , making them invisible. How do you know the occupational and socio-economic status of the majority of CF/ME/Long Covid sufferers?