To think good on her ?

[bluelollipop99]

I have a lovely friend who is 36 weeks pregnant, ( her first baby ) , and she mentioned she was having an ELCS.

I asked if the baby was breech, and she said "no medical reason, but I didn't want hours of absolute agony, being told too short staffed for an epidural, tearing , never being the same down there again , feeling tearing with a 25% risk of an EMCS anyway. The NHS will never tell you this , but the NICE guidelines say if you request an ELCS they have to give you one, even if the midwives fuss about it."

I had a great fear of giving birth, but went ahead with vaginal birth as there was the clear pressure at the hospital that having an ELCS for non medical reasons made you "less of a women."

But thinking about it , my cousin had an ELCS at the same time and her recovery was not significantly longer than mine; to make up for the agony I went through.

I also think it's a bit bad that you only get this of you are literate enough to check the NICE guidelines.

AIBU unreasonable to think ELCS is often the best option for some people, and good on her for not being shamed / guilted out of this ?

Anyone who suggested I was less of a mother with DS2 as I had a section with him would have seriously regretted it.

Yes, OP, I think she’s done the right thing. I know someone who had such a terrible birth experience which ended in an emergency section and had no further children due to her fear of it repeating. All that could have been avoided if she’d not been discouraged from a section in the first place.

I think the biggest cause of maternal death prior to antibiotics was infection.

Followed closely by the lack of trained and regulated birth attendants.

Just look at the figures for mortality in childbirth for pre medical advances in developed countries or currently in undeveloped countries.

Yep just did, after reading your sweeping statement and we both know there is a lot more to it than 'body adaption'.

Talk about 2 & 2 =5.

The world is populated by women giving birth by VD. We have among the highest CS rates and still 3/4 of women give birth by VD.

I've had a c-section and a vaginal birth. Neither was a walk in the park, but the c-section had a much longer recovery time.

I did not for one moment suggest that body adaptation was the sole or causal factor. You'll be keenly aware however that we are lucky to have access to medical care because childbirth often does not happen naturally and successfully without it. We're not that well evolved. I'm afraid I would be glad if more women knew this and proactively sought medical support, rather than labouring under the delusion that the most important thing is to be a big girl, not complain and fulfill an often punishing birth plan influenced by phony facts from NCT.

You clearly have an axe to grind but this is a simple point. Don't worry about what you want women to know. Just give them the facts.

To reiterate, I think choice is key. We live in a society where in theory we get to make those choices.

But unless you know an individual's medical history it's just irresponsible to suggest any type of birth, VB or CS, is a better or more suitable outcome.

I did not for one moment suggest that body adaptation was the sole or causal factor.

Read your statement again.

I'm having one. First time was emergency, second time I'm choosing this for all the reasons she has outlined and more

What about the cost to the NHS
if everyone had a C section ,it would bankrupt it

There's actually much less risk for the baby, so please don't quote things like this without fact checking first. I am due to give birth in a few weeks and I've been advised to have a c section because I am a high risk pregnancy and an ELCS poses less risk to the baby than a VBAC.

No it wouldn't, don't be ridiculous.

I had an ELCS for the reasons your friend did. And also during a C Section have about 9 medical professionals around you at all times apart from a midwife who may or not be overwhelmed and only in the room sporadically. Or worse, a midwife who doesn’t want to “defer” to a doctor, at the expense of the woman. “Too late” for a the epidural.
No thanks.
ELCS was wonderful. I felt like a total goddess before, during and after the birth. Exactly how every woman should feel when she gives birth.
I would never give birth any other way.

I had an EMCS after a horrendous labour with DC1. I would definitely have opted for an ELCS if I thought there was a decent chance I'd have been given one. I have a bad blood phobia and the unpredictable nature of a natural birth made me anxious. But I was reluctantly persuaded by the messaging that natural was best and safest. By DC2 I had a much better idea of what my body was capable of and what worked best for me and requested an ELCS. I was really struggling to get it approved despite my medical notes making it clear I was very likely to hit some of the same issues again that I'd had with my first birth. I had a scare with DC2 at about 30 weeks and had to see a consultant who turned out to be the same doctor that delivered DC1. I told them about the issues with approval and she said that was crazy and immediately sorted it. Interestingly she was also pregnant with her first and told me she wasn't even considering a vaginal delivery and was going straight to c section. She specialised in birth injuries and I've often wondered how much that influenced her decision. Also bet she had no issues getting it approved!

I'm having one soon for my first baby purely because that's what I want. Don't give a monkeys what anyone else thinks; my body, my choice! And I'm formula feeding from the get go too because that's what I want to do.

I mean, regardless of what anyone's personal experiences are good v bad, this right here is the attitude new parents should have. It really makes bo difference in the long run and good mental health for the mother trumps most things imo. Worrying about what others think is a pointless thing to do.

Much more nuanced but you're clearly in the natural birth brigade and will read accordingly.

Much more nuanced but you're clearly in the natural birth brigade and will read accordingl

Not nuanced at all. More sledgehammer wrong.

For the record not the natural birth brigade AT ALL.
2 VB, 1CS & 1 ELCS here. Far from it.

But you clearly have an axe to grind with "the natural birth brigade" as you call it. That's coming through loud and clear.

I'm more about having choice. What the hell does 'natural' mean anyway?? You're the first person to bring that description to this discussion . And I'm more about actual facts not unscientific nonsense.

Like I said I hope no one reads what you posted and worries they are not really 'adapted for giving birth'.

Er, no, that's not the case at all. A poster up thread had quite a long meditation on the word natural. Read the thread

As I'm sure you're aware if you've had so many interventions yourself, if giving birth was something women just did naturally we would not need medical interventions and women around the world would not die in childbirth. Unfortunately they do and fortunately we're in a position in this country to help nature's shortfalls. It is anti women to gloss over the inadequacies of our bodies when it comes to childbearing because it's in our interests for help to be normalized and prioritised. No one can do that if the government and others have twigged that it's cheaper to tell women they can do it all themselves and aren't good enough if they didn't manage to - which is what has happened over the past thirty years to the point that we now have scandals, inquiries into maternal/baby deaths and official changes in policy on promoting intervention free childbirth. That is all about choice. Women need the facts to make these choices, not some sanitized version that you have decided they can cope with hearing. Suggesting we maintain a fiction that childbirth happens naturally is an insult to women in developing countries who desperately need access to more medicalized births.

Women need the facts to make these choices, not some sanitized version that you have decided they can cope with hearing. Suggesting we maintain a fiction that childbirth happens naturally is an insult to women in developing countries who desperately need access to more medicalized births.

You what??? I wonder where I said that?. I don't even agree with it. 😆

But I still think your sweeping statement was not correct. And you can bluster all you like but I stand by it and I think it's misinformed.

You seem to be projecting a lot onto me.

What I've decided, what I've glossed over, what axe I have to grind, what brigade I'm part of etc and all because I've pointed out that a sweeping and very dramatic statement that you've made doesn't stand up.

We are all different.
I had vaginal delivery, it was overall a positive experience . I had a 3rd degree tear and bled for a while afterwards, although I wasn't in much pain. I had to be reminded by the midwife to take painkillers!
It definitely depends on your experiences, but I've heard from friends who had C sections that the recovery plus looking after a newborn was so tough. I wouldn't opt to have one unless it was advised.

Are you an academic? Are you a HCP? Do you work in obstetrics?

Exactly this. It's a well known fact that c sections are much less riskier for the baby, but slightly more risky for mother.

I'd be careful going down that route. Firstly C Sections are not actually more expensive if you factor in after care costs for traumatic vaginal births, they work out about the same.

Secondly, if you don't think NHS should offer it for women for non medical reasons (are you including mental health reasons btw?) then what's to stop you saying NHS shouldn't treat people for cancer due to smoking, or anything relating to alcohol and obesity issues as these are technically self inflicted?

Completely agree. And almost everyone wants an epidural on their birth plan and then get refused one when the time comes. Maybe if the NHS actually guaranteed women an epidural, there would be a lot less C Section requests.