To think schoolgirls wearing exposing skirts isn’t a feminism issue but a safeguarding one?!

[Moonicorn]

Following on from the thread about skirt length inspections, AIBU to think stopping underage girls from revealing their underwear and bum cheeks to male teachers (or any teachers) isn’t ‘internalised misogyny’ but basic safeguarding?

Or am I just ‘not enlightened enough’ to understand that underage girls can expose what they want to grown men as long as they’re ‘happy and comfortable’ with it?

Disclaimer: I believe adult women can wear whatever TF they want and are not responsible for men’s reactions to them, but this is about children which is a different ball game.

Interested to know your thoughts!

Isn't that the crux of the matter. Many years ago I recall our school thought it was OK to send teenage girls in hockey skirts out on a run around the town. It was only when our head girl's run was blocked by a man in a van who repeated v loudly over and over again that her skirt was too short, it was disgusting etc ,all in rhythm while he masturbated that it was realised there was a safeguarding issue.

Not to be attractive, I was self conscious and didn't want to be bullied for my spots.

What victim? Again, you seem to be assuming that all girls are automatically victims and makes automatically predatory. . Teachers have to physically look at their students. If what they see is acres of bare thigh, or v thin tight covered thigh, they cannot not see it. That is not the same as "perving", but try proving that to a post "me too" world. It is the workplace. No-one should be put in a position where just going about their normal business can result in career ending allegations. And it happens. You said upthread about "vanishingly rare". It's not. Would you like to go to work everyday knowing that you are leaving yourself open to allegations of sexual assault just by having your eyes open? Girls DO actually need to take some responsibility..if they don't want their thigh to be seen , cover it. For emphasis, I am NOT SAYING "perved at" or even "looked at" but unless they've changed the laws of optical physics people see what is in front of them, whether they want to or not. Longer skirts and trousers won't eradicate the problem but at least the teacher has a faint chance of being able to assert that he wasn't looking but there nothing to look at. Again, for emphasis, in a scenario where the teacher is in fact innocent.

@QueefQueen80s

Its not feminist to wear make up for sleezy men either

Can you point out where I have said girls should be allowed to show their bits?

Ive repeatedly said they should wear shorts, tights or trousers. No one should be showing under wear but that is not the actual problem

Im not defending the showing of arses. I'm defending the right of girls not to be victim blamed.

@BibbleandSqwauk

You say what victim then say poor innocent men and girls need to take responsibility for not ruining men's careers by showing thighs?

Jesus

For those who say they should be allowed to wear what they want because of feminism. Should they also be allowed to do what they like because of feminism too? Do you’s believe is some form of boundaries on behaviour and conduct? Do you believe in consequences and responsibility or do you think girls should have no responsibility in life?

Cos I’m pretty confident and determined, and no-one walks over me. But I can’t understand your view. Can you explain the rationale behind it and how it fits into a civil society?

No. You are saying by implication that if girls do, as OP asked in her post, choose to wear short skirts and display their knickers and arse cheek, that it’s not the girls fault and she should not take responsibility for her decisions.

You are framing ‘victim blaming’ as a way of saying females should have no responsibilities or be held accountable for their actions.

So we are clear here, about what you are trying to say, cos I and others may have misunderstood... What do you think the consequences should be for a girl wearing a short skirt to school that displays her knickers and cheeks as OP has asked? Can you answer that part of OP’s question?

@WillowBeeT

Yeah I think you have completely misunderstood what I've said.

Im not sure how children shouldnt be sexualised has been turned into women should be allowed to do what they want

If any child is deliberately showing their naked bum then I would have bigger concerns about their over all well being

This. I once posted about walking behind a girl in school uniform whose arse cheeks were visible. I was asked why I was looking. Erm, because she was in front of me. Not looking at her would mean I wasn’t looking where I was going. And me not looking wouldn’t mean her arse cheeks were no longer visible to anyone else.

@Botw1 yes, I mean exactly that. All people in a society, including teenagers do have a responsibility to act and dress in a way to fit with societal norms. There's absolute outrage on here over male flashers but because obviously that's a sexual assault. But apparently teenage girls can flash their arse cheeks and that's ok? They are not victims by dint of being girls. They only become victims IF someone "pervs" on thembor worse. Just existing as a girl does not = victim.

Make teachers should never be involved in checking girls skirt length. That I itself is a safeguarding issue.

@BibbleandSqwauk

No one has said its ok to flash arse cheeks.

Your comment was about thighs and therein lies the problem

I absolutely disagree that we should be teaching anyone male or female that they have to dress to fit in with societal norms

For a start where I live the societal norm is short lycra skirts

Having to conform, be it to wearing short skirts or covering acne is the problem

Male teachers not make teachers , sorry for typo

@Botw1 well ok then we will have to disagree. I believe there is such a thing as a social contract, that we owe it to other people to conduct ourselves within certain boundaries ...where those boundaries lie will of course vary over time and place..context is everything. Or would you be ok with the waiter serving you dinner with his balls on show? Cos, you know, he doesn't want to conform? Or your bank manager sitting topless at her desk? Cos it's hot that day. Most adults know where those boundaries are but teens need guidance...as generations of us know and therein lies uniform and the enforcement of it.

Presumably these girls are walking, taking the bus, trains, trams to get from their homes to their schools. It's not unreasonable to expect male teachers to exercise self control, and in the perfect world we sadly do not inhabit, it would be good to think and men (or others attracted by young girls on short skirts) to exercise the same self control.

But we live in the real world .....

@Trainbear by"exercise self control" do you mean teaching with their eyes shut? Some on here seem to believe that merely by seeing a girl in a short skirt that they have sexually assaulted her and made her a victim, and sadly, some male teachers are accused of that. The jen in passing on trains etc are total strangers, very unlikely to be in a position of being accused.

@BibbleandSqwauk

Why are you asking about naked waiters or bank managers?

You switched from thighs to arses as well.

Your continued exaggerated concern for male teachers rather than young girls facing actual sexual assault and harassment says it all

@Botw1 no, it really doesn't. I'm taking your non conformist argument and taking it to its logical conclusion to show how absurd it is. When I teach my PSHE class to a bunch of 15 year olds tomorrow, shall I tell them its actually fine to wear what they like and that anyone else can do likewise even if they find it distrressing? I am actually pretty fed up with you insinuating that I don't care about VAWG when I spend a fair portion of lesson time talking about it and steering the conversation away from the gobby lads who want to make it all about the the tiny minority who are falsely accused. What I do empahaise to them is their responsibility not to put themselves in a position where they CAN be accused, not becaus they have done anything but because the possibility that they could have done is there. Its exactly the same with the male staff in this discussion. They are not theoretical or hypthetical, they are my very real friends and colleagues over two decades of teaching and yes, my concern for them is real, which does not mean I can't ALSO care about VAWG.

This is why it is perfectly reasonable to argue that men are indeed vulnerable to being put into a position where totally unfounded accusations can be made against them. It’s the all men could be predators, so all men must be treated as such approach and, quite frankly, if men really were this bad, then it would be insane to wander around skirts so short your knickers were on display - tantamount to wandering into the cage of a lion who hasn’t been fed for a week. Nobody, however, would argue against te logic of warning someone not to wander into the hungry lion’s cage.

Both boys and girls will try to cover up or get rid of their acne, because acne is considered generally unattractive, not because concealer over acne is attractive. Trying to cover up your acne doesn’t suddenly make you look sexually alluring - it generally draws less, rather than more, attention to your appearance, so not quite the same thing as breaking school uniform rules by wearing a short skirt, which is both drawing attention to yourself and often done because the wearer thinks it is more generally attractive than a knee length skirt.

A male head of my 'liberal school' when asked why at his school no one is policing make up, clothing etc. said that school is not a prison/disciplinary institution. Teenagers are rebellious and are getting through difficult phase. They should feel safe at school where they spent most of their time. And should be able to trust their teachers. You wouldn't trust someone whose objective is to punish and control you.
There were girls who would go to him with the most intimate stuff and it was his approach of respectfulness, reason and partnership that made them ready for adult world.

*Teachers who see their students as sexual objects should never ever be anywhere near students.

There is a difference between policing behaviour and letting someone know their knickers are showing and that this is making other people feel uncomfortable. However liberal, there comes a point where something has to be said about a person’s choice of clothing or lack thereof. Where that point comes depends on pre-agreed areas of tolerance (eg the school’s uniform policy). Even the most liberal school would not allow full on nudity. And it is all very well saying you have to be able to trust your teachers, but if you do not trust a man to point out your skirt is so short you appear to be revealing more than intended, then you don’t actually trust your male teachers.