To think schoolgirls wearing exposing skirts isn’t a feminism issue but a safeguarding one?!

[Moonicorn]

Following on from the thread about skirt length inspections, AIBU to think stopping underage girls from revealing their underwear and bum cheeks to male teachers (or any teachers) isn’t ‘internalised misogyny’ but basic safeguarding?

Or am I just ‘not enlightened enough’ to understand that underage girls can expose what they want to grown men as long as they’re ‘happy and comfortable’ with it?

Disclaimer: I believe adult women can wear whatever TF they want and are not responsible for men’s reactions to them, but this is about children which is a different ball game.

Interested to know your thoughts!

What have I just read. They aren’t exposing themselves. What’s wrong with you.

One school had a demo from girls because they weren't allowed to wear skirts!

Schools should let girls wear trousers. Rolling skirts up is a tale as old of time, but schools should clamp down on it (not by measuring them though I mean you can see without doing so). It puts peer pressure on other girls to follow suit even if they're uncomfortable, and yes I know girls could still say no and not do it but it's hard when you're a teen. Of course if men leer or whatever then it isn't the woman's fault for wearing what they are wearing, but in a school environment why and what is the need to roll skirts up so short you can't sit down without exposing your arse? It's categorically not more comfortable, there's no functional purpose to wearing them shorter than intended, we all know this.

In this day and age School Uniforms should be scrapped - on my last day of School, I set mine on fire in the back garden as I hated it so much.

I loved mine as we never had brands or could afford the latest trends so would have no doubt been relentlessly mocked about it (as happened on mufti days).

How is anything I said condoning what she did? I bought her the longest skirt I could. She would roll it short en route, school told her off and I supported school and made it clear I thought she looked ridiculous with it shorter. There is literally nothing else I could have done. I don't understand any parent arguing that it is fine and they should be left alone to do what they like. I was merely acknowledging that girls have always done this and schools have always policed it.

@ConfusedNT well I don't want to derail this into a general uniform thread but at my (independent) school we have fairly strict / conservative rules on hair, jewellery and make up because we want the focus to be on learning and just getting on with it. There's also a lot of sport so multiple piercings are a safety issue. The girls who don't push the boundaries, when asked about it, say they prefer it this way because there's less pressure to wear x or y and they just put on the uniform, stick their hair up in a ponytail and job done. In the 5 schools I've taught in, the stricter the uniform policy, the better the overall behaviour is. When rebellion consists of a second piercing or not having your hair up, you don't need to swear at teachers or throw things to push the boundaries.

Maybe if teachers started phoning parent and calling them in tomcollect their children when they were inappropriately dressed, parents would start addressing their children’s attitudes to school dress codes.

Parent would only be called in a few dozen times before they realised their employer may have an issue with their constant excuses to leave work, and their lack of commitment to their careers.

And if parents refused to collect their children and dress them appropriately, then the school could call social services and express their concerns to them. Social services receiving repeated concerns from a single child may well feel that family need to be talked to and monitored.

I can understand that most parents couldn’t care less about their daughters’ skirt lengths, and I fully back the outrage an any male teacher getting involved in any way. It is for female teachers and parents to address these safeguarding issues. But the problem needs to be visited upon the parent, the responsible adult, because children only repeat the moral values and attitudes they learn at home.

How many posters have said they didn’t think it was an issue and they did it themselves? But did they grow up and learn to dress appropriately, or are they still dressing inappropriately at work?

Ffs I can tell you, social services have got much better and more important things to do than get involved with school uniform conflict.

What an absolutely ridiculous thing to say. There really are some strange people on mumsnet.

I take it you don’t discipline or punish your daughter when she steps out of line then? Maybe if there were consequences for ignoring you and her school staff, she may choose not to do as she pleases. Did your parents ever care what you did, if you say you did this? And if they did, did they ever discipline you? I don’t understand how you don’t believe you can take responsibility for this. Or it it just no big deal so why bother putting in the effort?

I think most parents don’t care. They think discipline and behaviour are the school’s problem. That’s why so many teachers despise parents. Any teachers on here?

Tbh, in DDs upper school there are a few girls who have their underwear on show that their skirts are so short.
The school starts a bit earlier than most and it is a concern that some of them appear to walk to and from school alone, without their peers even.
I'm concerned about their risk of being attacked to or from school.
Also knowing what teenage boys are like, it's a concern.

@WillowBeeT I'm a teacher and a parent. It's a very well known phenomenon that kids will behave differently in the home and school environment. My two teens will argue the toss with me about everything and be twatty about uniform and homework but if a teacher tells them to do x they do it immediately. It's not that there's no consequences at home but that's their safe space with unconditional love so they know they can push it. I totally get it and actually am perfectly ok with working with the parents of my form kids if they are being bratty at home. I'll happily put them in detention or give them a boring task to do which they'll accept without question.

@Fuckityfuckfuck123 agghh..you've just walked right into it. It's not up to teenage girls to dress in a way so as not to provoke teenage boys. Teenage boys need to learn, understand and respect the fact that a woman or girl could parade naked in front of them and they still wouldn't be "asking for" anything . This is more about following convention, accepting that a professional or formal environment has certain standards.

I was actually quite strict with my kids and have always supported school, however, just for one second try and imagine yourself being a 6'3" schoolgirl at the age of 13 with size 10 feet.
She hated standing out from the crowd and the skirt thing was an attempt to fit in. She has also since been diagnosed with ADHD which is also challenging when it comes to discipline as her emotional regulation is not great.
Anyway, you carry on judging my parenting if it makes you happy.

I completely agree with you OP.

No one is blaming young girls for being sexually assaulted. That’s a seperate issue. But WHY do they need skirts so short you can see their tights gusset? What’s the purpose, when the dress code states otherwise?

We can agree that tiny skirts that expose bums are not acceptable and also agree that men and boys need to not harm girls. The two are not mutually exclusive

My DD was happy to wear normal skirt length, until teased by other girls for not being cool because her skirt is too long. So she wears a shorter skirt now , and is more self conscious and would rather not, but doesn’t get grief. It’s shit.

It's those that bend the rules that lead to skirt length checks. I've been teaching for over 20 years and currently skirts are the shortest they have been (on some girls) mixed with the fashion for thongs. Male teachers are afraid to ask a girl to roll their skirts down as they are pervs/nonces etc )as has been shown on this thread by pp) - and this sticks.
I had a girl bend over a table doing group work with friends and she was totally exposed. The boys weren't perving - they were embarrassed and didn't know where to look. I called her to one side and asked her to unroll the skirt and it was fine.
The majority of girls roll their skirts but they are OK. Not all girls want to wear trousers.
It's not about men being predators - they will be in any circumstance. It's about having a bit of awareness of what is acceptable. It is never acceptable to expose one's arse in public.

Why are the girls rolling up their skirts is the question I want answering. I teach in a secondary and I hate seeing bum cheeks and gussets. Many of the girls do not know how to sit so they are not showing their gussets and I swear they have no idea anyone can see their arse cheeks hanging out. Thankfully it is not many who do this but I, as a female teacher, hate seeing it and it feels so uncomfortable for me. BTW, these are girls who have the option to wear trousers too.

If a member of staff came in dressed like this they would be sent home so I do not know why pupils aren’t.

If a number of girls are wearing ridiculously short skirts, bending over, calling teachers peeves and nonces then they are trouble makers and should be dealt with individually. If they are being that disruptive then suspend them.

But herding every single girl in the school and having teachers measure their skirts is another matter altogether.

@Pastapizzalover sadly excluding kids is not that easy these days. I agree that herding kids is wrong but many schools are at a loss with what to do. In my old
school it would be 100/1200
pupils excluded for uniform.

Your assuming the girls don't want to boys attention. Back in the 00s it was about getting the hot boys attention. I'd just let them get on with it, but no reaction if she says twist so and so is looking at me. A simple well pull your skirt down is all that is needed.

I’m a teacher and posted on the protest thread that was deleted.

Every day I see thongs and gussets as girls will wear their skirts so short. It embarrasses me. I’m an ardent feminist. I have a secondary a school daughter. She’s sporty so in a sports club each day so attends school in her kit. My school allows trousers - in fact it’s encouraged as we have high numbers of Muslim girls - but we still have girls who wear brightly coloured bras under shirts and butt skimming skirts. I do not want to see crotches - female or male - when I’m teaching.

Out of curiosity, I assume you’re female, and you have somewhat the same feeling shared about the recent news article, and the ritual humiliation of all school girls at a public school by the male staff.

As some have posted, if a member of staff feels uncomfortable with the nature of a child’s display of their knickers or ass cheeks as OP phrased it, then it is inappropriate for that teacher to be teaching at all. I would imagine they are unprepared and not suitable well balanced enough to be teaching high school students.

But parents at the end of the day (like those who say they’re fine with it and what can they do, it’s not their job to discipline their children) need to be the ones who are held accountable for their children’s actions. I suspect the disrespect for school dress code is a reflection of the moral disposition of the child’s parents, because not all children do this, and not all parents would stand for it. It’s just bad parenting, no boundaries, as I see it.

So why not have a school dress code policy and send these girls home if they cannot abide by it? Presumable the office has the phone numbers for parents.

That is ridiculous. All of us would feel uncomfortable at seeing a young teenage girls ass cheeks/knickers.

I saw a couple of them at the bus stop and it made me feel really uncomfortable. It made me feel really uncomfortable because the girls are so young.

If a 13 year old boy came in to school with his full bum out , would you be okay with it. Would you think it would make other people uncomfortable?