To think schoolgirls wearing exposing skirts isn’t a feminism issue but a safeguarding one?!

[Moonicorn]

Following on from the thread about skirt length inspections, AIBU to think stopping underage girls from revealing their underwear and bum cheeks to male teachers (or any teachers) isn’t ‘internalised misogyny’ but basic safeguarding?

Or am I just ‘not enlightened enough’ to understand that underage girls can expose what they want to grown men as long as they’re ‘happy and comfortable’ with it?

Disclaimer: I believe adult women can wear whatever TF they want and are not responsible for men’s reactions to them, but this is about children which is a different ball game.

Interested to know your thoughts!

@BibbleandSqwauk

You haven't explained how longer skirts prevent false accusations

Interesting that so many women are more concerned with males being at risk of being uncomfortable and of false accusations than if young girls being sexualised and sexually assaulted

If arses/genetalia on show is an actual risk, then shorts or tights is an easy solution

But then how would we clutch our pearls and worry about the poor menz?!

Im fat and over 40 but this thread is making me want to shove my fat arse in someones face and give it a good wiggle

Who needs men to uphold the patriarchy eh?

Sexual assaults mysoginy amongst teen boys is a huge problem

Now we know why.

Their mothers are teaching them the slurs deserve it

There's absolutely no equality in school uniform. I like the idea of uniform but every school needs an overhaul. No kid shojld wear ties, blazers, awedul see through shirts. They're children not lawyers

Some women / girls cannot wear trousers for religious or cultural reasons.

Also it can be easier to deal with periods in a skirt.

The problem is male behaviour. That should be policed.

@Botw1 I can be concerned about more than one thing at a time. Me being concerned for my male colleagues' career does not preclude me also being concerned for young girls being preyed upon. Longer skirts helps my male colleagues and students actually avoid accusations of perving because if a thigh is not on show they can't see it can they?And thus can't be accused . (Or at least, it makes it less likely). You seem to be assuming that any male who lays eyes on any female WILL be predatory. I'm not an apologist, a "poor menz" advocate or anti feminist but in a professional environment, EVERYONE is entitled to feel safe in every sense of the word. Sexual assault is not the only danger out there. I've actually explained this about four times now sonic you still don't get it, I can't help you further.

Oh and "young girls are being sexualised" ...they are choosing to wear their skirts so short. They do wear tights, but very thin ones. Who is doing sexualising here?

Out of school, I 100% agree that girls can wear what they like, can parade naked down the street if they like (and some almost do on a Friday night in our town) and ought to be perfectly safe doing so. However, we are talking about a work environment, with adults who have to interact with these young girls, who have no choice but to look at them and sometimes get quite physically close. Why should they have to come to work and put themselves at risk of accusations? As I said upthread, all teachers are taught to minimise the risk to ourselves of false allegations in various ways. It's a thing. Young girls' rights to express themselves do not actually override all else.

Why do you think some girls wear their skirts like this, just out of interest?

It isn’t solely about ‘male behaviour’ though.

And I find this single-pronged, highly unrealistic and ineffective approach to female safety to be so head-in-the-clouds it’s laughable.

The best approach is not only ‘policing male behaviour’ (what does that look like in your world?) but also safeguarding women and girls using practical measures, and women and girls learning how best to protect themselves.

I will absolutely not be teaching my daughter to walk around with her arse cheeks out, hitch hike with random men, allow men she doesn’t know to buy her a drink unless she sees it being poured, and so on. By your logic, we should all just do those things 🤷🏼‍♀️ because we shouldn’t have to protect ourselves, just ‘blame male behaviour’ if something happens.

The only people who win in your world are men with their wider and easier selection of victims. Buy hey, as long as we’re blaming the right person

I work in education myself. With these age groups on occasion.

You know nothing about me.

Why do you think some girls wear their skirts like this, just out of interest?

You can want to feel attractive without actually wanting attention.

What culture doesn't allow trousers?

Stick them all in trousers. Proper ones with buttons, darts and no Lycra. Chino type things.

That or joggers will do.

Skirts are a stupid idea for school

Well it's both isn't it. It's a feminist issue that we have to safeguard young girls from adult men, because it isn't the same the other way around.

@QuertyGirl yeah good luck with that. Seriously? Tailored trousers with darts etc look hideous on many women / girls. I have no issue with girls wearing skirts, even tight, stretchy ones so long as they are long enough to be at least mid thigh when sitting down and not bum skimming when climbing stairs. And 40+ denier tights, at school. As I said, outside, it's up to them though like a pp said I will be encouraging my DD to not let it all hang out. Fortunately, at 11 shes pretty unimpressed with all the tiny crop tops in the shops right now and seems to be veering towards grungy boots and jeans.

@QuertyGirl good luck with getting parents fo back you on that. The girls don’t want to wear trousers. They want the right to wear skirts rolled up to the middle of their arse and shame on you for not backing them on that 🙄

YANBU.

It's a school uniform. It's meant to be practical, it irrelevant if you personally don't like how it looks. Joggers or proper trousers are fine.

I genuinely don't understand why teenage girls are walking to school in ballet pumps and mini skirts. Totally impractical.

Funny how things change, we wouldn't have been seen dead in a school skirt in the 90's.

Honestly, I'd put the whole lot of them in onsies or boiler suits. Boys and girls.

I was at school on the 90s and we wore skirts. I don't think it's wrong for young girls to want to look and feel attractive and tailored trousers are so awful on anyone not tall and flat of stomach but the point is try and help them work out that half naked actually isn't a good look. Getting bogged down in minutiae isn't helping the general debate though.

Orthodox Jews, maybe others?

But there could be a trousers or ankle length skirts rule - think trousers would be chosen by the vast majority.

I do not agree with the argument that ‘we must protect the poor boys/men from being turned on’ but at the same time there is a basic decency argument. I don’t want to see anyone’s underwear. If school is preparing children for work then dressing appropriately is part of that.

Look attractive? It's school. Same as work. Not appropriate.

In what way does showing their knickers make someone feel attractive?! And even if it does, who on earth would think that would not attract attention from anyone, male or female, who has to walk behind that person up the stairs? Either they actually want others to find them attractive, but want to pick and choose whose approval they will tolerate and how they will accept that being expressed; or they don’t realise how much they are exposing themselves. Yet far too many people don’t let the person know they are inadequately covered, for fear of being accused of “perving.” Meanwhile, they may be blissfully unaware their skirt is that short, because nobody warned them. It’s far more sensible to wear something more practical in a school environment, and not as if schools don’t try to help with that by having a uniform.

I agree with this. Out of school wear what you like. In school, follow a dress code. I’m sure there would be complaints if I was sitting on my desk (I tend to do that) and students could see up my dress and view my underwear (and I wear old lady big pants so no flesh would be in show 😆). I think pastoral teams are loathed to get involved in the fear of body shaming pupils but it’s not, it’s just knowing what is appropriate work wear.

It doesn't look attractive though and it isnt more comfortable or practical. Controversial take but whilst of course girls shouldn't be sexualised by others and clothes will never make assault or whatever else acceptable, school should be a safe environment where they aren't peer pressured into sexualising themselves either. It's hard enough going through puberty and the physical and emotional changes that brings without having what is usually other girls calling others frigid, boring, a loser for not having their arse hanging out. Its sad, and there's lots of faux naievty around why it's done.

@QuertyGirl yes, it's ok to look attractive. I'm not talking about a "look" for a night out, but do you not choose clothes that you think flatter you, brush your hair nicely, put on any make up at all? I'm about as low maintenance as you get but I do face powder and lipstick for work. Technically our school doesn't allow any make up for the students but we tolerate cover up, reasonable foundation etc as we get the concerns they have about their skin. Bright orange foundation slapped on an inch thick gets challenged though.

It's a uniform- they don't get to choose their clothes.

I try to look vaguely professional for work when necessary- certainly not "attractive"!

Is this really what people are teaching their daughters? Did feminism not happen?

Of course, it’s always the male’s fault.

In your perception of the world, is everything in life the male’s fault? Do females have agency? Do females have any responsibility for their actions?

Bad parenting is only the responsibility of the parents. This is why society is falling apart. Parents on the thread making excuses and not giving a F about what their kids are doing.