Page 5 | Pronouns annoyance

crochetmonkey74 · 2023-02-23T22:52:06+00:00

I support every human being having the right to be who they are. This is not a bashing thread but I do want views on this. Today , my friend messaged something about a non binary celeb. I replied with "I like him I think he's great" she then sent a text lecture about misgendering. I actually didn't do it deliberately. My thoughts are these though: how can you insist on how others (who you will never hear or even know about) talk about you? I agree with referring to people however they want you to in real life of course, am I just being a grumpy old bag? I genuinely want to get better at understanding the pronoun thing. What are your thoughts?

FeinCuroxiVooz · 23/02/2023 23:52

it's abusive gaslighting to make people say they believe something that they don't believe.

we have freedom of belief and respect eachother's beliefs. it is ok for some people to believe in a magical gender essence which is totally unrelated to chromosomes and hormones - although I've never yet heard a rationale for such beliefs that isn't ultimately rooted in sexism, but I can't police that any more than I can stop the CofE from being homophobic. so I let people get on with believing what they want. but compelling me to act as if I believe something I don't is not allowing me freedom of belief. If I am aware that someone doesn't like hearing the pronouns appropriate to their sex used of them, I will do everything I can to structure my sentences in such a way that no gendered pronouns are needed.

yanbu. you did nothing wrong. nonbinary celebrities do not get to control your thoughts or speech or opinions.

massifcentral · 23/02/2023 23:52

@Gagagardener

Sorry, hadn't seen your post before posting my own.
We think as one.

Maybe it/ it/ it's will be my update.

Moopsi · 23/02/2023 23:53

crochetmonkey74 · 23/02/2023 23:52

I don't think it's nasty to use the wrong pronoun

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You mean the correct pronoun for their sex

Eyerollcentral · 23/02/2023 23:53

MsJD · 23/02/2023 23:43

We can’t change our sex.

Thats what Putin says.

Omg… You can’t change sex though. So he is right about one thing.

skullbabe · 23/02/2023 23:54

adriftabroad · 23/02/2023 23:32

I am identifying as a man tomorrow.
I will give it a go.

This chap should be able to help with that

amp.theguardian.com/society/2019/apr/20/the-dad-who-gave-birth-pregnant-trans-freddy-mcconnell

MsGrumpytrousers · 23/02/2023 23:54

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

Can you explain coherently why you think the two things are analogous?

BetterArf · 23/02/2023 23:54

Psychosocial · 23/02/2023 23:51

That's okay, as long as you're nice out loud and only nasty in your head, that's great.

I see it more as lying in public and being honest in my head. I think when Galileo was tried for saying the Earth is round he agreed that it was flat but whispered under his breath ‘except it’s not’. A bit like that.

It’s not pleasant and I hope that things will change and that gender ideology will die a death eventually. I hear some teens are getting fucked off with it already, so I live in hope.

Genevieva · 23/02/2023 23:54

So if you had said "I really don't like them, I think their work is s**t" would that have been respectful? Do the people who all about respect in this way really never say anything that others might find offensive ever? Pot calling the kettle black me thinks. You can call people what you want to call them - both in terms of pronouns and descriptions. Tell your friend to stop being holier than thou and to lighten up.

grumpycow1 · 23/02/2023 23:55

But we’ve always said ‘they’ if we didn’t know - like ‘someone left their bag there’. So it’s surely not that much of an inconvenience?! It takes practice and mistakes happen but I don’t get why people get so wound up by it.

JellySaurus · 23/02/2023 23:55

Psychosocial · 23/02/2023 23:38

People getting so mad over using the pronoun someone would like you to use is hilarious and just so OTT.

If you meet someone and refer to them as her or he, and they say, "actually, I prefer to be referred to as they", I bet none of you would laugh in their face and say no, you're clearly a her/he, I will only refer to you as that. I bet you'd do it out of politeness.

And if you would laugh in their face, you're a cunt.

There's absolutely no harm referring to someone with their chosen pronouns, it doesn't hurt you or affect your life in any way but it can make a big difference to someone else.

I wouldn't lecture someone on it via social media but having basic respect to refer to someone how they have asked you to is really not that difficult.

I am not going to pretend that a man is a woman. Or facilitate any other nonsensical, gaslighting power-grab or delusion. The most I would do is to avoid using pronouns at all to refer to that person.

Pronouns are Rohypnol

MichaelFabricantWig · 23/02/2023 23:55

sleepwouldbenice · 23/02/2023 23:45

What's so hard about remembering "them" rather than "him"?

Because one is grammatically plural????

if you meet lots of people and a number of them are wanting pronouns to be used that don’t correspond with the sex based pronouns that are easily ascertainable by the evidence of one’s eyes and ears then yes it can be hard to keep track of

Ofcourseshecan · 23/02/2023 23:55

brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr · 23/02/2023 23:29

Good for you. You’re the majority and you have it very easy. Great. Some - a tiny minority of people - don’t.

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Good god, are you seriously claiming that women have it easier than men who dress as women?

massifcentral · 23/02/2023 23:55

I do say 'they' when a person asks to be called 'they'.

But I always say it in quotation marks. The way atheists say "god".

Eyerollcentral · 23/02/2023 23:55

Psychosocial · 23/02/2023 23:51

That's okay, as long as you're nice out loud and only nasty in your head, that's great.

What’s nasty about referring to someone as you observe them?

VerityUnreasonble · 23/02/2023 23:56

If I sent a text about someone who was very obviously male / female- let's say Queen Consort Camilla and I said

"Did you see Camilla he was wearing a very fancy tiara?"

I expect my mistake would be ignored and assumed to be accidental or someone would say "you do know Camilla is a woman don't you??'

I cannot imagine I would get a lecture about misgendering her.

Psychosocial · 23/02/2023 23:57

Frankldearest · 23/02/2023 23:48

If it gets to the point where every second person demands that everyone else uses a non-standard pronoun for them, it really does affect our lives. And not just he/she/they - all the other ones that are out there, plus people are being encouraged to make up new ones just for them. It involves a lot of thinking, trying to remember, looking back at emails to check, being told off and possibly threatened, apologising, etc etc. It paralyses everyday life. And we're half way there already. It's even tougher on the elderly, on children, on those with learning difficulties or just poor memories, on ethnic minorities and foreigners. And all for what? It's a sacred caste thing, to put people in their place, to force them to spend more time and thought and to be more scared of one category of person.

It's seriously not that deep.

Have you met every "second person" "demanding" to be called something other than she or he? I haven't. I only know one person in real life who refers to themselves as they/them, and all they did was an instagram post basically saying "hey, I feel more comfortable using they/them pronouns, it makes me happier and feel more like me." And from then on we all use they/them pronouns. Ta da. Nothing scary about that. No children being hurt. No disciplinary. Just remember to call them, them. Easy. My friend is happy, thus I am happy.

I have never met anyone who demands to be called anything. I have never been frightened of how people identify because it isn't a bogeyman we all need to be afraid of, it's just life. It isn't hard to adapt as best we can. No one is going to hang you if you get their pronouns wrong. Unless you're doing it deliberately to be cruel, in which case, you're shit.

All this fearmongering is so strange to me. Like non binary people are lurking in the shadows waiting to destroy people.

Eyerollcentral · 23/02/2023 23:58

grumpycow1 · 23/02/2023 23:55

But we’ve always said ‘they’ if we didn’t know - like ‘someone left their bag there’. So it’s surely not that much of an inconvenience?! It takes practice and mistakes happen but I don’t get why people get so wound up by it.

I don’t get would up about it, I just know that you are either a male or female. Non binary is not real. It’s wrong to force others to behave as though they believe it is.

Psychosocial · 24/02/2023 00:01

Eyerollcentral · 23/02/2023 23:55

What’s nasty about referring to someone as you observe them?

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Nothing. Unless they correct you or ask you to refer to them as something else and you continually refuse or make fun of them. That's nasty and unnecessary.

If you don't know, it isn't unreasonable to refer to someone as you see them. I would refer to an obvious male or obvious female as he/she unless they told me otherwise.

BlackForestCake · 24/02/2023 00:03

It's perfectly easy for you to give me a pound every time you see me. It's just basic respect and it would make me happy.

Get in the bin with this bullying.

Ofcourseshecan · 24/02/2023 00:03

JellySaurus · 23/02/2023 23:55

I am not going to pretend that a man is a woman. Or facilitate any other nonsensical, gaslighting power-grab or delusion. The most I would do is to avoid using pronouns at all to refer to that person.

Pronouns are Rohypnol

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Must you keep using logic and reason, JellySaurus? Psychosocial has clearly explained that anyone laughing at pronoun nonsense is a cunt, which brilliantly clinches the argument.

PollyPaintsFlowers · 24/02/2023 00:04

PutIn also eats cake. Does that make you a fascist if you eat cake?

Wasn't Hitler a vegetarian? Does that make vegans even worse than Nazis?

Pol Pot drank water. I'm definitely going to avoid water now

The argument of the original poster who brought Putin into this, not the one I quoted, is as ridiculous as being expected to use the wrong pronouns to support a person's delusions and thinking a person can change sex. They can't.

Moomoola · 24/02/2023 00:04

Moopsi · 23/02/2023 23:43

The harm is in signifying your agreement with a misogynistic, illogical and harmful ideology that puts rapists in women's prisons and DV refuges, medicates and sterilises people with mental health issues, harms children and insists that people lie about reality in order to validate a delusion or "philia" or calls them bigots if they don't conform. It is also based on regressive stereotypes and undermines women's hard-won rights.

This.
well said.
there’s some research proving that agreeing to call young trans people by their trans names not their ‘deadname’ ( what horrendous language) pushes them into an identity that they may not be comfortable with, and is more likely to lead to medicalisation but if they doubt their own thoughts, they must be transphobes .
teens are being encouraged to leave home ( Jeffrey marsh, dr z et all) by narcissistic men with Lippy on. Not wearing lippy does not make me a man.
teens are being encouraged that if they can only be very girly or they must be trans. It used to be called a tomboy.
in the abigail schrier book, irreversible damage, she mentions some research whe by there is a very small (0.08 or something) of young men that are very feminine from birth, and there are another bunch who come to it in puberty and these are much more likely to be interested as some sort of sexual thing. These are men that get their kicks from pretending to be women and enjoying going into womens spaces.
pits a horrible misogynistic ideology where young women are being encouraged to be trans ( it will solve all your problems) which is bad enough, watching them carry placards that say ‘ decapitate terfs’ is not inclusive, neither is it kind.
also! Bear with me!
changing an identifier causes cognitive dissonance, confusion when you are trying to talk, and weakens you, the person who has to get their head round this. And gives the power to the other person. But if you keep using it, you are making something utterly ridiculous become normalised. It’s how brainwashing worked in pow camps, and cults.
use of pronouns is then being weaponised, yet it all seems so innocuous.
and that’s the power of a pronoun.
!
hope that made sense. Please don’t fall for this dangerous nonsense.

BetterArf · 24/02/2023 00:04

Psychosocial · 23/02/2023 23:57

It's seriously not that deep.

Have you met every "second person" "demanding" to be called something other than she or he? I haven't. I only know one person in real life who refers to themselves as they/them, and all they did was an instagram post basically saying "hey, I feel more comfortable using they/them pronouns, it makes me happier and feel more like me." And from then on we all use they/them pronouns. Ta da. Nothing scary about that. No children being hurt. No disciplinary. Just remember to call them, them. Easy. My friend is happy, thus I am happy.

I have never met anyone who demands to be called anything. I have never been frightened of how people identify because it isn't a bogeyman we all need to be afraid of, it's just life. It isn't hard to adapt as best we can. No one is going to hang you if you get their pronouns wrong. Unless you're doing it deliberately to be cruel, in which case, you're shit.

All this fearmongering is so strange to me. Like non binary people are lurking in the shadows waiting to destroy people.

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It IS that deep.

Pronouns don’t exist in a vacuum. They are a part of gender ideology, which I don’t believe in and am opposed to, because I think it harms women and children.

So, great that for you it’s as simple as being kind and making your mate happy. But for me, it is a symbol of something I don’t believe in and am being compelled to say I do.

MsGrumpytrousers · 24/02/2023 00:06

"There's absolutely no harm referring to someone with their chosen pronouns, it doesn't hurt you or affect your life in any way but it can make a big difference to someone else."

Really, @Psychosocial? So when a man has been accused of two rapes, and he's in court, and you're one of his victims, and he's decided that he's really a woman, and you're required to refer to him as "she" and talk about "her penis", and his crime is logged as a female crime, and he's sent to a women's prison...

That's all fine and not hurting anybody, is it?

Eyerollcentral · 24/02/2023 00:07

Psychosocial · 24/02/2023 00:01

Nothing. Unless they correct you or ask you to refer to them as something else and you continually refuse or make fun of them. That's nasty and unnecessary.

If you don't know, it isn't unreasonable to refer to someone as you see them. I would refer to an obvious male or obvious female as he/she unless they told me otherwise.

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Right but your previous post said the OP was being nice out loud and nasty in her head. She wasn’t speaking to the person using pronouns when she accidentally misgendered them. She hasn’t done any of things you have set out in your post above. So your criteria for calling someone nasty doesn’t apply there, but you’ve still called her it. I think that’s much more unreasonable.