Pronouns annoyance

[crochetmonkey74]

I support every human being having the right to be who they are. This is not a bashing thread but I do want views on this.
Today , my friend messaged something about a non binary celeb. I replied with "I like him I think he's great" she then sent a text lecture about misgendering.
I actually didn't do it deliberately. My thoughts are these though: how can you insist on how others (who you will never hear or even know about) talk about you?
I agree with referring to people however they want you to in real life of course, am I just being a grumpy old bag? I genuinely want to get better at understanding the pronoun thing. What are your thoughts?

As is evidenced by any MN thread on this subject and a lot of other social media platforms, plenty of people agree with you.

I just think it's ridiculous to be upset about pronouns. I've never encountered any of the sheer terror that many feel in this post about it. There is plenty of room for all people to exist as they please but someone will always be upset about it. Such is life.

"No one is going to hang you if you get their pronouns wrong. Unless you're doing it deliberately to be cruel, in which case, you're shit."

Agreed. Except the OP is being made to feel crap on their post

As above. Also when you are surprised by your DD and her boyfriend who was born a girl, and looks like a girl, they get into a shriek about being misgendered, go home and have a big hoo ha with their mum, and use it as an excuse to turn your DD against you. Because I’m obviously an evil f*ing transphobe.
not harmful either.

Ooh, careful, @Psychosocial will be here to tell you of for misgendering the lovely Isla. 'Cause that makes Isla happy to be referred to as 'she', we must all participate and pretend we can't see the bulge in those pink leggings

I have to say, 'fisherthem', as an expression, makes me giggle, I genuinely can't believe anyone still takes this person seriously after that.

I will never apologise for being terrified and outraged in equal measures by anything that threatens womens rights or the safeguarding of children.

And all the subtle little ways it’s happening - ‘harmless’ changes in language included - I will call out where I see them.

Where is this terror you are referring to? The hyperbolic language does you no favours at all, it diminishes your position as when you strip away the hysterical language there isn’t much of substance left there. You don’t seem to have much faith in or place much value in the need for truth and honesty. People can exist however they like, they can’t expect people to play along and get upset when they don’t.

Nobody has expressed “sheer terror”. They have explained their annoyance at being compelled to lie, their annoyance at the harms the ideology which ‘preferred pronouns’ supports and upholds is doing to women’s rights or their impatience with the utter daftness that is “non binary” (aka absolutely everyone, since no one adheres 100% to masculine or feminine stereotypes).

No need to resort to hyperbole and misrepresentation.

This is a pretty good explanation. Better than my clumsy attempts!

www.feministcurrent.com/2021/07/28/the-problem-with-preferred-pronouns/

This is fab. Who wrote it?

So just because you happen to know only one transperson? In some schools, half the class is identifying as something they're not. Some as the opposite sex, some as non-binary, and not necessarily all using he/she/they. And people are having complaints brought against them for misgendering. It's being included in disciplinary procedures.
In Germany, they're actually re-writing the language to accommodate "non-binary" people. An denotes that someone is neither male nor female. But if you're speaking rather than writing, you have to pause, while everyone imagines the .

That doesn't work on Mumsnet, so German speakers are going to be in trouble if they post on here. In German, an ASTERISK now denotes a non binary person, and when you speak you're supposed to be silent for a second, to denote the existence of an ASTERISK.

Time to give this an outing again -- "Pronouns are Rohypnol"
fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/
extract --
"(Pronouns) dull your defences. They change your inhibitions. They’re meant to. You’ve had a lifetime’s experience learning to be alert to ‘him’ and relax to ‘her’. For good reason. This instinctive response keeps you safe. It’s not even a conscious thing. It’s like your hairs standing on end. Your subconscious brain is helping you not get eaten by the sabre tooth tiger that your eyes haven’t noticed yet."

Actually, I wouldn’t use their pronouns. I would decide they aren’t worth my effort and move on with my life. I don’t interact with delusional people if I can help it.

As is my right.

I dont think it’s about insisting, I think it’s about basic respect.

It's about control and power over others.

I’ve recently seen a very distressed teenager growing up with all this whirling round in her head, it’s to much it was really up setting to see. She doesn’t know if she wants to be a girl a boy non binary a lesbian. I can remember hating my body growing up I always wore tracksuits, baggy clothes and was even mistaken for a boy a couple of times. I often wonder how I would cope with being a teenager now.
As an adult having had lots of therapy (for un related issues) I love being a woman and love my body.

I agree that if someone insisted on special pronouns it would massively put me off them. I'd rather talk to someone who doesn't spend their life navel-gazing and hectoring people on how to show respect to them.

suspect much of the pleasure comes from the sheer entitlement of demanding that everyone who ever mentions you has to pause for a few seconds while they struggle to remember what pronouns you demand of people. It's a bit like demanding that everyone pauses and bows to the ground each time your name is mentioned.

💯

There's plenty of hyperbole in your own post though.

It's possible to be a critic of the ideology and want to fiercely protect women's rights, while still being understanding of the (mostly very young and/or ND) people caught up in it. Don't conflate using preferred pronouns with agreeing that men can change sex and should be allowed into women's bathrooms.

I know a bunch of teens who are all over the place with their gender identity and even as a 50+yo rad fem I'm not finding it at all difficult to keep up with whatever they're calling themselves that day, and use their preferences without clutching my pearls and shrieking IT'S ALL A LIE!!!

But it is a lie. So some people are less willing to indulge those lies than you are.

But it IS a lie.

I have a major problem with the way children are being groomed and gaslit in schools currently. We are feeding them bullshit. I wonder how generations to come will look back on this?

There is no hyperbole in the post you quoted. I don’t think anyone said that they have any difficulty following what pronouns etc people want to use. That’s not the issue. Your post ends on an extreme note that is beyond what anyone has said on this thread. I do find it odd that you describe yourself as a radfem but go along with teen preferences on gender (don’t know of any rad fems who would agree it exists). I know a lot of teen girls myself. I can’t imagine allowing them to wrap themselves up in knots over gender when I know it’s not true and not telling them that. I wouldn’t need to shriek at them it’s all a lie to have a conversation about it either. Very odd.

If 'Daniel' decided he wanted to be known as 'Dan' from now on but you continued to refer to him as 'Daniel' in conversation with your friend, surely your friend could correct you on that and say 'oh, he likes to be known as Dan now'.

Would you think anything of that?

This is the same thing.

Obviously there is no agency over it (and I doubt most non binary people actually carry the level of self entitlement that is often attributed to them). It's just basic respect/ acknowledgement of who they are, whether or not they are in the room.

Your friend didn't need to send you a 'lecture' though, they should have just politely corrected you and moved on.

If 'Daniel' decided he wanted to be known as 'Dan' from now on but you continued to refer to him as 'Daniel' in conversation with your friend, surely your friend could correct you on that and say 'oh, he likes to be known as Dan now'.

Would you think anything of that?

This is the same thing.

It really isn't.

I doubt most non binary people actually carry the level of self entitlement that is often attributed to them).

Also lol at this.

We'll have to disagree. I am talking about friends of my own kids, I don't have the option to 'allow' them anything.

They are the victims here, not the enemy. We all know how most teens love to rebel against their parent's norms and to fit in with their tribe. I genuinely believe that rolling our eyes internally and saying a version of 'that's nice dear' to most of the gender bollocks they come up with is the best strategy to see them grow out of it ASAP. Digging our heels in just makes them do the same IME.