Pronouns annoyance

[crochetmonkey74]

I support every human being having the right to be who they are. This is not a bashing thread but I do want views on this.
Today , my friend messaged something about a non binary celeb. I replied with "I like him I think he's great" she then sent a text lecture about misgendering.
I actually didn't do it deliberately. My thoughts are these though: how can you insist on how others (who you will never hear or even know about) talk about you?
I agree with referring to people however they want you to in real life of course, am I just being a grumpy old bag? I genuinely want to get better at understanding the pronoun thing. What are your thoughts?

A man is being called "he". End of story.

Sorry I was being lazy - it was the part of the quote history from @Anothernameanother regarding comparing calling a bipolar friend “crazy” with using the non- preferred pronouns

I think with sports it should be:
Women and an ‘Open’ category - so men plus TW.

Transmen compete in women’s categories because they know they can’t compete with men. So why are transwomen allowed in the women’s category.

Splitting by weight etc still doesn’t allow for the advantages of going through male puberty. We need to categorise by sex (and age) to be fair.

As for ‘men can compete in women’s sport if they lower their testosterone’. Do me a favour. Women aren’t ‘men with low testosterone.’
plus do you realise that even if a man dropped his testosterone to a low enough level to ‘qualify’ that is STILL much higher than a woman’s. A woman raising her level to the same ‘dropped’ level would be banned for doping.
It’s ridiculous.

The sports issue is very simple - no biological males in women’s sport ever

all the evidence shows that men no matter what clothes they put on, how long their hair is or what female hormones they take retain huge advantages over women

There is no need to do anything about the sports issue if people, politicians, were just truthful and admitted men cannot become women.

Because there is no logic at all to saying yes you're now a woman… but not when you are in a swimming costume.

you start off by saying you support a man's new female pronouns, you end up with a male bodied male exposing himself, watching females undress and competing and stealing positions and prizes from females he is cheating against.

pronouns are one of the current ways people are controlled into making life worse for women.

weight is a ridiculous statement and not where the advantage lies.

I guess I think that non binary isn't really valid?

If a woman’s “identity” is based on denying that she’s a woman, how can it be valid?

What does "valid" even mean in relation to human beings?

it also doesn't change the rates at which they offend.

no men in womens spaces at all.

The researchers state: ‘male-to-females . . . retained a male pattern regarding criminality. The same was true regarding violent crime.’ MtF transitioners were over 6 times more likely to be convicted of an offence than female comparators and 18 times more likely to be convicted of a violent offence. The group had no statistically significant differences from other natal males, for convictions in general or for violent offending. The group examined were those who committed to surgery, and so were more tightly defined than a population based solely on self-declaration.
if we add in those men who now self-identify upon arrest…

And where do these people stand on a rape victim being told to “reframe their trauma” in order to facilitate a man’s desire to work in a rape crisis centre? Where do they stand on men going into women’s changing areas even though it makes women extremely uncomfortable?

Where do they stand on opening up all women’s safe spaces to ALL men (all they need to say is I’m a woman).

How are they ensuring no woman has her rights impacted by their claim to be a gender which doesn’t align to their sex?

How do they ensure women’s sport is a fair place for women - ie they don’t have to compete against biological men.

I think you’re asking the wrong people about these ideas. How are your friends making sure their personal feelings aren’t adversely affecting women (or men).

if they feel like a woman/man despite biology how do they ensure they are not reinforcing extremely harmful gender stereotypes which women have had to work long and hard to counter?

I don’t think it’s up to women to have to state how these men pretending to be women and vice versa should be accommodated, those identifying as trans should have to consider how half the population will not be impacted by their personal decision.

if Trans people don’t want to be lumped in with the TRAs who think nothing of death and rape threats, there needs to be a stand within the trans community against that sort of behaviour.

Ah yes. That was a very poor attempt to shut down conversation.

If you don’t believe that men can actually become women you are transphobic. If you don’t believe that women can have penises you are transphobic.

once you accept that you are transphobic then you don’t give a shit anymore if you get called names

Yes. So being 'transphobic' is a good thing. Consider it a compliment.

@crochetmonkey74 just accept and embrace the terms TERF and transphobic. Both will apply unless you just accept men have free rein to do exactly as they please and women have no right to dignity or safety.

Both terms have become interchangeable with “grasper of reality”

What bicycles and nolongersurprised said.

Food shortages, cost of living crisis, war, earthquakes killing thousands.

And all we hear is "Call me THEY!!!!!" "Stop misgendering me"

And even if this stuff does stick, it's going to take decades to change centuries of learnt language and how we naturally speak.

Sam Smith said he wanted to be a "fisherthem" after correcting the tv presenter saying "fisherman". WTAF

@ShippingNews

You obviously don't have young adult children. Between ours I know several trans/non binary young people and have a fully transitioned family member

i Work in a HR department - and I can tell you that the pronoun issue is very much on a lot of peoples minds!
This debate reminds me of a joke tick tock where someone says
" I identify as invisible. I am trans - parent. My pronouns are Who/Where!"
Brilliant joke - but we are living in a time where this is very much a debate we all should be getting engaged in. On BOTH sides of the disussion.

Fisherman is a funny one. We can neutralise police officer, fire fighter but fisher person feels all wrong.

Angler covers it.

Yes, exactly. There's already a perfectly normal word in existence to describe somebody who goes fishing for a hobby, that has no hint of sex/gender or anything to it. Sam is deliberately attention-seeking and looking to create a problem where there is none.

In fact, Sam is going further and deliberately appropriating a term that is understood by native English speakers to refer to an actual occupation and livelihood, not just a professional singer's hobby. Just like I can't style myself as a popstar, because I like to warble in the shower.

If you referred to some celebrity with, say, a racist slur it wouldn’t become acceptable just because they will never see your text.

You do realise that 'he' and 'she' are not insults in any way - they are just very minor parts of standard grammar? Most people use them instinctively and don't give them a second thought - like the words 'on', 'for', 'to' and 'in' - it's only the trans and NB people who insist on making something massive over a trivial mundanity.

And now a university in the UK is telling students to use "they" pronouns for everyone, until everyone has told them what pronouns they want to be used for them. There is no end to the purity spiral.

I have no problem with the singular they when referring to somebody theoretical or of as-yet-unknown sex; but I do not want to be referred to as 'they' by somebody who can very clearly see me and observe my unambiguous sex. To refer to me as 'they' in this context is misgendering, deliberately slurring and (to use their own language) 'actual violence'.

Like with the 'cis' slur, I am vexed and offended when people in these minority groups assume to be freely able to refer to me by using their own belief system - even trying to slap me down and tell me how 'wrong' and 'troublemaking' I am if I object - but I am not freely able to refer to them using my own basic traditional knowledge (call it my belief, if that makes you feel better). All of the screaming about wanting equality and it's nothing of the sort: it's seeking special privileges and assuming the right to redefine words when it suits them (but not when it doesn't) to fit their agenda.

To be honest, it is showing people a lot of respect when we tactfully ignore them in their attempt to enforce their ideology on to us, when our more justifiable reaction would be to hit back (not physically, of course) at them seeking to ride roughshod over ours and arrogantly make out that they are special, unique people whilst we are nothing more than nondescript walking stereotypical clones.

Mainly because then trans people wouldn’t get the thrill of being affirmed as a sex they aren’t. Only really seems to be a problem where men want to play on women’s teams, haven’t seen many trans men make it on to men’s teams 🧐

Sam Smith said he wanted to be a "fisherthem" after correcting the tv presenter saying "fisherman". WTAF

I didn't see the original interview - I'm used to Sam not needing very much prompting to begin kicking off about something - but I can only assume that the interviewer is either not a native (British) English speaker or was doing it to deliberately make a point (maybe even shilling for Sam, who knows?)

You're not a chef if you put some chicken nuggets in the oven for your kids; you're not a carpenter/joiner if you assemble a Billy bookcase; you're not a fisherman/fisherwoman if you spend a leisurely Sunday afternoon every now and then sitting by the canal next to a fishing rod.

Quite simply you have to play as the sex you were born as regardless of how you present. That’s the only fair way to ensure every one is safe. The whole world of sport can’t be turned on it’s head for such a tiny overall percentage of the population. The amount of trans people who actually wish to partake in sport must be vanishingly small.

A third facility option (or maybe also a fourth: one each for TM & TW) is never going to happen, because most of them are seeking validation and insisting that they simply ARE women/female (or vice versa for TM) and so they already fully qualify for one of the existing two facility options.

Except when it will gain extra attention, privileges, political point-scoring - all on their terms - to also mark themselves out as special, being trans. A simple case of having your cake and eating it.

But even if TM & TW would accept third/fourth spaces - which they wouldn't, because they would see it as a betrayal of who they 'really are' - that doesn't solve the issue of those identifying as non-binary, who appear to take being different and 'unresolvable' as their raison d'etre: if somebody could somehow find a workable solution for them - short of having a separate toilet in every public place for every single NB-identifying person in the world, hundreds of thousands of toilets in every single pub and local community centre - they would consider that they had summarily failed (or, more likely, that everybody else had failed them).

👏👏👏👏👏

At the heart of this matter is the conditioning women receive obliging them to be “nice”. It’s a very strong part of what is expected of us. Men on the other hand are allowed to be “rude”.

Plus #bekind now means “lie” “pretend” “be gaslit” to protect the feelings of an overgrown toddler

Fat is thin, up is down, green light means stop because I said so

I’m going to be kind to myself and not take part in someone else’s ideology out of obligation