To be worried about Russia's retaliations on the West?

[fedupfufu]

There was an LBC listener who called in and said that Russia will nuke the UK first as retaliation for giving Ukraine fighter jets. It wasn't too long ago that fighter jets were considered off the table by the US and the UK. There were also two people on an episode of Joe Rogan's podcast discussing this. The powers that be just seem intent on bringing us closer to nuclear Armageddon. Sometimes it seems like nobody will do anything until it's too late.

There's a distinct whiff of all Russians are bad jingoism on here and if they don't fight their government then they are complicit. Most people have a lot of sympathy with the Ukrainian plight but I would guess most don't want an open ended committment whatever the cost. If that makes me a Putin bot so be it.

Biggest threat to the UK/World peace is China supplying Russia, this will lead to a huge escalation AND massive economic impact, as China is sanctioned, which would them lead to China going for Taiwan.... nothing left to lose, also, much of the world supports Russia or is so called "neutral" which really means they back the war.

This conflict needs to end quite soon, even if it means Ukraine losing territory, nothing apart from nuclear war is forever.

...much of the world supports Russia or is so called "neutral" which really means they back the war.

Much of what China says and does about Russia is purely political rather than intrinsically supportive.

Iran, Cuba and NK are more interested in getting one over on the US than helping Russia, per se.

Even the CSTO countries don't all back Russia - Kazakhstan, for example, refuses to recognise Russia's annexations.

That Levada centre research interesting (and depressing)

As far as i can tell, much of Africa, Asia and South America are, so called neutral on the Ukraine war... but they aren't really... they are trading with Russia, esp oil and gas and in the case of South Africa, taking part in military exercises.

Basically prolonging the war, with the supply of money into the Russia... hardly Neutral

Iran and NK have and still our supplying Russia with arms.

Not convinced on China, they have been building up their own economy and may well take the view that a Russian win in Ukraine is worth any minor economic sanctions the West might place on them.... all that would do is wreck our own economies.
China can also supply non lethal components to Russia, which can then be used for military purposes.

Not that I couldn't be bothered, I'd never heard of them.
The work they are doing sounds interesting, do you have a link to a more up to date sample, that one is nearly a year old from the start of the war/special operation?

It would be interesting to see the impact that the last year has had. Back then they could still access the Internet easily, now not so much. They hadn't Ben conscripting people who were walking down the street, or locking police cadets in a sports hall until they signed papers. They hadn't had more than 100,000 men.

I think attitudes will have changed.

To add to this, there will be neutral countries looking out for their own interests rather than wanting to get embroiled in the politics of a far away war. If the war results in their getting cheap oil from Russia, why wouldn't they buy it. They are not necessarily supporting Russia's political aims in doing so.

I think there is an element of the global south standing back and seeing how they can benefit or be least affected by the outcome of the war in Ukraine. If the Ukraine with the West's backing turns out to be a clear winner, then you will find the non-aligned world starts to more openly line up with the West again, if China is not palatable or as a counter-balance to China.

there will be neutral countries looking out for their own interests rather than wanting to get embroiled in the politics of a far away war. If the war results in their getting cheap oil from Russia, why wouldn't they buy it. They are not necessarily supporting Russia's political aims in doing so

Why shouldn't we buy Russian oil/gas then? all is good!

Russia's aims in Ukraine are not political, they are military, the idea is to kill as many Ukrainians as possible and incorporate Ukraine into Russia.

These countries either support the sovereignty of states & internationally agreed borders or they don't.

A lot of them were colonised by Western powers and view global inequalities as a successor to that fact. Plus many governments are corrupt and view authoritarian China and Russia as better patrons should they encounter problems with their own people. Myanmar comes to mind quite strongly.

I really enjoyed this debate if anyone's interested.

Is it by any chance a Putin apologist's, Covid conspiracist's, far-right bile spouting type of debate?

I only got a few minutes in but yes it is

Two for arming them, two against. No one mentions Covid.

Much better than Peter Hichens is Professor John Mearsheimer who has believes that Putin knows that he can't win now and is intent on wrecking Ukraine and then abandoning it in the belief if he retreats back to within his borders then NATO and Europe will lose interest in the reconstruction with problems of their own and that a failed state acts as a warning to any other Russian satellites that dare to believe they can escape its orbit. Sadly, he may well be right.

Exactly. I refuse to be cowed by that bully in the Kremlin. Ukraine needs our help to resist this disgusting attack and we have a moral duty to provide it. Not one inch of Ukrainian land should be given to Russia. Not one inch. The only way this conflict should be resolved is by the total withdrawal of all Russian forces.

I'm talking about that twat Hitchens and the far-right mouthpiece you're promoting.

All wars end and this war will not end with total withdrawal of Russian forces inc in Crimea, its not going to happen.

Russia has the ability to keep making artillery and basic missiles forever more and it also has unlimited man power... the Russian people show no signs of giving up on Putin and as he is only 70 and surrounded by people much like him or worse, there is going to have to be compromise or Ukraine, all of it, will be totally destroyed over the new few years...

In the US support for Ukraine is falling, around 50 to 60%, the West is depleting weapons stocks and we aren't giving enough h/w to Ukraine to push back the Russians (a handful of tanks aren't going to do it) then there is an election in the US in 2024, a new republican Potus may not be so keen.

The UK and Europe simply do not have enough weapons to keep giving to the UA, they need the USA.

I don't like any of this at all but atm Ukraine is holding onto captured territory but thats all.

In the US support for Ukraine is falling, around 50 to 60%

That leaves out that 22% have no opinion, so supporters still greatly outnumber those opposed.

Ukraine aid support softens in the US: AP-NORC Poll

Politicians who had previously been silent on the issue have started to speak out about why supporting Ukraine is in our best interests.

Pence urges Ukraine support as GOP hopefuls split on US aid

Are you talking about KK? It was a MN thread that introduced me to his podcasts, I like him. He's very far from a Putin apologist.

I am very extremely sorry that I tried to share something though. Please go on only listening to people who pass your purity tests.

@Alexandra2001
”In the US support for Ukraine is falling, around 50 to 60%, the West is depleting weapons stocks and we aren't giving enough h/w to Ukraine to push back the Russians (a handful of tanks aren't going to do it) then there is an election in the US in 2024, a new republican Potus may not be so keen.”

Biden was in Kyiv LAST WEEK saying the US would never abandon UA not let Russia win. Biden speaks for NATO.
Russia will not be allowed to win. It’s an impossibility.
Russia are making gains this week, but it’s hundreds of meters at a time.

Sorry but it started with Hitchens and I can't listen to him without wanting to bleach my brain 😳

Human extinction is probably the best thing that could happen to this planet😃

@C4tastrophe well said

Alexandra2001
Russia has the ability to keep making artillery and basic missiles forever more and it also has unlimited man power

People keep saying this, but I am not so sure about it.

For a start, Russia's armaments are not by any means all of them useable: there are reports that as much as 50% of what they have stockpiled isn't fit for purpose for one reason or another. And in cold fact, they don't have that many or that brilliant arms manufactories: the country has not been able to afford them. The USA and even Britain have far larger and more efficient ones, to say nothing of Germany and France.

With regard to the unlimited manpower: from 1992 to 2012, and again since 2016, Russia's death rate has exceeded its birth rate, even not counting the 140,000 or more men who have so far died in Putin's war (and whose deaths have been denied by Putin's regime) and since the most recent census; and I frankly disbelieve the Russian census figures anyway, because they inherited their census system from the USSR and the figures from the USSR were patent fiction, or to put it politely massaged to give the best possible impression: inflating the population figure meant more money from central government funds so of course there was a perfectly sensible motive to lie about how many people lived in the area... Then there are the Russians fleeing the draft and the war: 200,000 to Kazakhstan, 150,000 to Turkey, 100,000 to Georgia, 50,000 to each of Armenia and Uzbekistan, 30,000 to each of Israel, Finland and Kyrgystan, 20,000 to Tajikstan, 10,000 to Argentina... It all adds up. (Yes, Russia is getting refugees and people forced to move there from Ukraine: old men, women and children, not men of fighting age. Not a good exchange for the ones they have lost.)

And that not-unlimited manpower is at present untrained or was trained more than ten years ago. Most of Russia's crack trained troops were seen off by Ukraine during the first few weeks of this war (while their tanks ceased to function and tank-jams built up behind the ones that could neither move under their own steam nor be moved out of the way because nothing could get to them to shift them); they have put the people qualified to train new troops onto the front line, and many of them have been killed. The Wagner Group technique of forcing badly armed and untrained men to advance against a skilled and armed enemy to be mown down is not going to be a great help to the Russian cause in the long term, and hasn't been even in the short term, when Russian advances are measured in metres rather than kilometres.

Improbable. There is free capital in Europe, and the European countries are already running conferences on which country will rebuild which Ukrainian region.
If Putin destroys Ukraine and leaves he will be personally responsible for turning it into a proper EU satellite.

(And than the fun will start, as France & Germany are really afraid of getting Ukraine into EU and cteating very strong eastern EU voting block by that)