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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be worried about Russia's retaliations on the West?

298 replies

fedupfufu · 21/02/2023 20:16

There was an LBC listener who called in and said that Russia will nuke the UK first as retaliation for giving Ukraine fighter jets. It wasn't too long ago that fighter jets were considered off the table by the US and the UK. There were also two people on an episode of Joe Rogan's podcast discussing this. The powers that be just seem intent on bringing us closer to nuclear Armageddon. Sometimes it seems like nobody will do anything until it's too late.

OP posts:
sunsetboulevar · 28/02/2023 12:32

That article is a Wall Street Journal exclusive apparently and seems confident in it's assertions - more weapons , some form of NATO lite association and then if there aren't decisive battlefield wins then a push towards negotiations in the medium term. Macron's analology with German fails to mention that Germany was resolutely defeated and Hitler dead and if you want to extend that half of France were Nazi collaborators in Vichy France.

NATO’s Biggest European Members Float Defense Pact With Ukraine
French and German leaders told Ukrainian President Zelensky that he needs to consider peace talks

By Bojan Pancevski
and Laurence Norman
Updated Feb. 24, 2023 1:38 pm ET

BERLIN—Germany, France and Britain see stronger ties between NATO and Ukraine as a way to encourage Kyiv to start peace talks with Russia later this year, officials from the three governments said, as some of Kyiv’s Western partners have growing doubts over its ability to reconquer all its territory.

U.K. Prime Minister Rishi Sunak last week laid out a blueprint for an agreement to give Ukraine much broader access to advanced military equipment, weapons and ammunition to defend itself once the war ends. He said the plan should be on the agenda for the North Atlantic Treaty Organization’s annual meeting in July.

A year into the war, Paris and Berlin also support the initiative and all three governments see it as a way to boost Ukrainian confidence and give the government there an incentive to start talks with Russia, the French, German and British officials said.

The officials were careful to say that any decision on when and under what conditions any peace talks start is entirely up to Ukraine. Mr. Sunak on Friday said the West should give Ukraine arms that would give it a “decisive advantage” on the battlefield, including warplanes.

But the public rhetoric masks deepening private doubts among politicians in the U.K., France and Germany that Ukraine will be able to expel the Russians from eastern Ukraine and Crimea, which Russia has controlled since 2014, and a belief that the West can only help sustain the war effort for so long, especially if the conflict settles into a stalemate, officials from the three countries say.

“We keep repeating that Russia mustn’t win, but what does that mean? If the war goes on for long enough with this intensity, Ukraine’s losses will become unbearable,” a senior French official said. “And no one believes they will be able to retrieve Crimea.”

Such talk contrasts sharply with public comments this week by President Biden and other Western leaders, who called for unity to counter what they termed Russian aggression. None mentioned the prospect of Kyiv opening talks with Moscow in the near future.

In a fiery speech in Warsaw, Mr. Biden sought to rally the West, saying: “Appetites of the autocrat cannot be appeased; they must be opposed.”

U.S. officials declined to comment on the proposed NATO security pact. Washington has said it wants Ukraine to be sufficiently armed after the war to deter any future Russian attack.

The German government declined to comment. Spokespeople for the British and French governments didn’t immediately respond to requests for comment.

President Emmanuel Macron of France and Chancellor Olaf Scholz of Germany told Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky that he needed to start considering peace talks with Moscow when the three leaders met in Paris earlier this month, people familiar with the conversation said.

Over dinner at the Élysée Palace, the sumptuous seat of the French presidency, Mr. Macron delivered a more sober message, the people said, telling Mr. Zelensky that even mortal enemies like France and Germany had to make peace after World War II.

Mr. Macron told Mr. Zelensky that he had been a great war leader, but that he would eventually have to shift into political statesmanship and make difficult decisions, these people said.

Speaking after a security conference in Munich last weekend, Mr. Macron became one of the first Western leaders to publicly question whether either Ukraine or Russia could achieve their battlefield aims, saying neither side could prevail militarily.

He told French media: “What we need now is for Ukraine to launch a military offensive which pushes back the Russian front in order to open the way for a return to negotiations.”

Mr. Zelensky said Friday that he had repeatedly urged world leaders to press Russian President Vladimir Putin for a meeting before the invasion, something that the Russian leader refused. The atrocities committed by Russia over the past year make such talks impossible, Mr. Zelensky said. “Now it is us who cannot do it,” Mr. Zelensky said. “There is nothing to talk about and nobody to talk about over there.”

A British official said another goal of the NATO pact would be to change the Kremlin’s calculus. If Moscow sees that the West is prepared to scale up its military assistance and commitments to Ukraine over time, it could help persuade Moscow that it can’t achieve its military objectives.

Gen. Petr Pavel, president-elect of the Czech Republic and a former NATO commander, said at the Munich conference: “We may end up in a situation where liberating some parts of Ukrainian territory may deliver more loss of lives than will be bearable by society…There might be a point when Ukrainians can start thinking about another outcome.”
A funeral for Ukrainian soldiers in Lviv, Ukraine.Photo: Sean Gallup/Getty Images

France and Germany have signaled that they won’t be delivering new types of weapons to Ukraine as the fighting continues in the coming weeks. And while Britain is training Ukrainian pilots on jet fighters, officials say this is part of the longer-term objective to deter Russia from future attacks.

U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken, also speaking in Munich last week, said that the war must end in what he called a durable peace. He said “that means making sure that Ukraine has the capacity to deter aggression and, if necessary, to effectively defend against it.”

“We have to be thinking—and we are—about what the postwar future looks like to ensure that we have security and stability for Ukrainians and security and stability in Europe,” he added.

In theory, any NATO member could veto the proposal from the U.K., France and Germany, but the organization operates on consensus and such an initiative wouldn’t even be discussed at a summit without enjoying widespread support in the alliance.

The offer falls short of the full membership in NATO that Ukraine has applied for. Still, a more limited agreement could be a step in the right direction as long as it is part of a process that should at some point in the future end in a membership, said Andriy Melnyk, Ukraine’s deputy foreign minister.

“We would like to have security guarantees on the path to NATO,” Mr. Zelensky said in a press conference on Friday.

The pact being floated wouldn’t include any commitment to station NATO forces in Ukraine, the three countries’ officials said. Neither would it offer Kyiv so-called Article 5 protection, which requires all members to come to another’s rescue if it is attacked and requests assistance. But they said it would provide Ukraine with the military means to deter any future Russian attack.

While the exact terms aren’t fixed, several of these officials said Ukraine could get access to a broad array of NATO standard weapon systems and integrate its armed forces more tightly into the Western defense industry supply chain. Germany has already indicated willingness to supply specific aid on a permanent basis, including aerial defenses, heavy artillery, tanks and ammunition. Britain has talked about supplying warplanes. Alongside that, the officials say, individual members would continue to provide bilateral military assistance to Ukraine.

“The NATO summit must produce a clear offer to Ukraine, also to give Zelensky a political win that he can present at home as an incentive for negotiations,” the British official said. “Russia’s wars have a tendency to freeze and then unfreeze, and that is why Ukraine will need more guarantees from us.”

While London, Paris and Berlin see the possibility that Kyiv may have to seek talks with Russia after an expected counteroffensive this spring that could help it regain more territory, other Ukraine backers think there should be no negotiations as long as Russian troops remain on Ukrainian soil. Many point out that Mr. Putin has shown no sign of being willing to discuss peace in good faith.

Most Central and Eastern European governments fear that encouraging Ukraine to negotiate before either Moscow or Kyiv are ready could embolden Russia by suggesting dwindling Western support. Those governments believe Mr. Putin is still committed to his original wartime goal of taking Ukraine’s capital and toppling its government.

At the same time, NATO’s eastern members don’t want to appear as an obstacle to peace talks. Poland, the Czech Republic and the Baltic states have thrown their support behind Mr. Zelensky’s plans to end the war, a ten-point proposal that includes financial compensation, war-crime trials for Russian officials, and respect for Ukraine’s territorial integrity.

The London-Paris-Berlin proposal represents one potential set of security assurances that could allow Ukraine to feel confident Russia wouldn’t use a cease-fire as a pause before launching a renewed invasion.

On Friday evening, leaders from the Group of Seven nations, which include France, the U.K. and Germany, said in a statement they are prepared to make “security and other commitments to help Ukraine defend itself, secure its free and democratic future and deter future Russian aggression.”

So far, Central European officials said, the proposal has only been discussed on the margins but they are broadly reluctant to sign off on any long-term NATO status for Ukraine that falls short of full membership in the alliance.

Sabrina Siddiqui in Warsaw, Drew Hinshaw in Madrid and Yaroslav Trofimov in Kyiv, Ukraine, contributed to this article.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 28/02/2023 15:02

Fair enough, I should have guessed from what you said before that it was more reputable than Bild.

I guess we will have to see. Tbh I badly want Russia pushed back for several reasons, not least our own safety - I really think that Russia will keep on attacking by hybrid warfare and perhaps physical unless they are show in no uncertain terms that it won't work.

Alexandra2001 · 28/02/2023 15:31

Anything short of full nato membership, would be like previous guarantees... worthless... and a future Russia could come back for more.

But at least there is acknowledgement that the idea that Ukraine will win and regain all its territory is for the birds.

Surplus2requirements · 28/02/2023 16:55

@Alexandra2001 perhaps, but then a year ago we all expected Kiev to have fallen by now.
Experts included

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 28/02/2023 17:15

Surplus2requirements · 28/02/2023 16:55

@Alexandra2001 perhaps, but then a year ago we all expected Kiev to have fallen by now.
Experts included

And Russia hasn't got to the difficult bit of any invasion-and-occupation yet. At the moment it looks rather as if they never will, too.

DdraigGoch · 01/03/2023 00:30

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 28/02/2023 17:15

And Russia hasn't got to the difficult bit of any invasion-and-occupation yet. At the moment it looks rather as if they never will, too.

Yes, since 2014 we had been teaching Ukrainian troops the tactics we learned from the Taliban. Had Russia overrun Kyiv as planned, they would have faced a constant insurgency.

DdraigGoch · 01/03/2023 00:31

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 28/02/2023 12:09

Meanwhile a single individual saying something unrealistic during a phone-in is apparently enough to make someone so worried they have to start a thread here asking about whether the UK is about to be nuked.

And was so worried they haven't come back...

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 01/03/2023 10:34

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Alexandra2001 · 01/03/2023 16:06

Given very recent news and what happens in Russia, thats actually very sick.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 01/03/2023 16:30

Alexandra2001 · 01/03/2023 16:06

Given very recent news and what happens in Russia, thats actually very sick.

Give over, do. If the person who started this thread is in Russia they are an ingenuous pest; if not, that's not relevant.

Alexandra2001 · 01/03/2023 18:17

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ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 01/03/2023 19:42

To go back, indeed, to the title of the original post - whatever the UK does now, Russia is going to be vindictive. Quote

"According to the Intelligence and Security Committee Russia report, released on 21 July 2020, there is substantial evidence that Russian interference in the British economy and politics is commonplace"

This was before the invasion.

It doesn't matter what the UK does or doesn't do, it's going to be a target of Russian hybrid warfare.

MissConductUS · 01/03/2023 20:05

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 01/03/2023 19:42

To go back, indeed, to the title of the original post - whatever the UK does now, Russia is going to be vindictive. Quote

"According to the Intelligence and Security Committee Russia report, released on 21 July 2020, there is substantial evidence that Russian interference in the British economy and politics is commonplace"

This was before the invasion.

It doesn't matter what the UK does or doesn't do, it's going to be a target of Russian hybrid warfare.

They hate the entire west, but the Brits have done something to really properly piss them off. Well done.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 01/03/2023 20:18

Yeah ... though I meant that Russia was targetting the UK well before the war, for quite some time. Now it'll be even more determined. So .. it doesn't matter what we do or don't do, it'll happen anyway.

Igotjelly · 01/03/2023 20:33

MissConductUS · 01/03/2023 20:05

They hate the entire west, but the Brits have done something to really properly piss them off. Well done.

Frankly we should wear their disdain like a badge of honour. About time we did something bloody right!

Surplus2requirements · 01/03/2023 20:38

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 01/03/2023 19:42

To go back, indeed, to the title of the original post - whatever the UK does now, Russia is going to be vindictive. Quote

"According to the Intelligence and Security Committee Russia report, released on 21 July 2020, there is substantial evidence that Russian interference in the British economy and politics is commonplace"

This was before the invasion.

It doesn't matter what the UK does or doesn't do, it's going to be a target of Russian hybrid warfare.

At least now we'll be prepared to admit it happens and try and prevent it instead of ignoring issues like infiltrating the information space to influence votes, accepting dirty Russian money to get rich and lobbying for your Russian oligarch 'mates'.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 02/03/2023 10:20

I hope so. By now when I observe Brexit, the lack of critical thinking and failure of education to get people aware of what's going on (no blame to ~teachers~ there~] and the way the NHS is being destroyed, I don't know if the UK govt will do much. Im very sad to say that there are few pro-active initiatives on major threats to society.

Alexandra2001 · 03/03/2023 06:12

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 02/03/2023 10:20

I hope so. By now when I observe Brexit, the lack of critical thinking and failure of education to get people aware of what's going on (no blame to ~teachers~ there~] and the way the NHS is being destroyed, I don't know if the UK govt will do much. Im very sad to say that there are few pro-active initiatives on major threats to society.

Yep 100%

We seem to be going backwards...

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 03/03/2023 07:55

Yes. Increase in poverty levels, and - I know it sounds small but it is a signifier - the sheer rubbish on the streets and poor maintenance.

At least the UK has supported Ukraine to the hilt!

BashirWithTheGoodBeard · 03/03/2023 08:01

I will say that I think ordinary people are more aware of Russian bots, trolls etc than was the case a few years ago. One quite often sees people telling them to shut the fuck up and laughing at them on the internet. That's something.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 03/03/2023 09:08

elsewhere and not just on Mumsnet, @BashirWithTheGoodBeard ? I only quack on these forums and don't really look at others

BashirWithTheGoodBeard · 03/03/2023 09:15

Yep I've seen it on twitter and FB too. I haven't been keeping tally or anything but I've observed it happening more than it did a few years ago.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 03/03/2023 09:56

Good to hear! I started a Twitter account last April conveying Telegram info about the war for people who don't have Telegram, and the whole anti-Russian-propaganda thing is very lively.

The whole NAFO thing with the shiba Inu dogs is amazing!

( for anyone who hasn't heard the term, NAFO began as a small thing on Twitter where someone'd make you a pic of a Shibu Ina dog supporting Ukraine for a voluntary donation, even a tenner, to a Ukrainian cause. It spread and has become kinda worldwide with at least tens of thousands who get a pic, and it's driven the pro-Russian lobby nuts because quite a lot of people actively work to counter Russian lies and disinfo)

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