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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be worried about Russia's retaliations on the West?

298 replies

fedupfufu · 21/02/2023 20:16

There was an LBC listener who called in and said that Russia will nuke the UK first as retaliation for giving Ukraine fighter jets. It wasn't too long ago that fighter jets were considered off the table by the US and the UK. There were also two people on an episode of Joe Rogan's podcast discussing this. The powers that be just seem intent on bringing us closer to nuclear Armageddon. Sometimes it seems like nobody will do anything until it's too late.

OP posts:
Maray1967 · 26/02/2023 21:37

Some PP are far too pessimistic about this situation and overestimate Russian capabilities. Putin knows he’s in a mess of his own making. This is why it is vital that Western states hold their nerve and work constructively with Poland, Baltic states etc
There must be no gain for Russia from this conflict. If there is any gain it will be repeated.

MissConductUS · 26/02/2023 23:21

Russia has the ability to keep making artillery and basic missiles forever more and it also has unlimited man power

On the first point, they may be unable to make them fast enough to offset losses and consumption in the field. Russian troops are complaining bitterly on social media about ammunition shortages, and the number of missiles fired has fallen off dramatically. And they can't run their stocks down to zero in case they are attacked elsewhere/

On the second point, there is a finite number of military-aged males in Russia who are fit for service and not engaged in critical employment that exempts them. That number is getting smaller all the time due to losses on the battlefield and men leaving the country to avoid conscription.

The west has consistently overestimated Russia's capabilities. It's a bias that's only now diminishing.

BashirWithTheGoodBeard · 27/02/2023 06:57

Absolutely. I understand being worried that Russia have a greater civilian pool to pick from, but it hasn't got anything close to unlimited manpower, much less unlimited manpower of the type that might actually be useful.

The traditional Russian military mentality of keep throwing men at it and they'll run out before we do is still there, but the demographics that supported it aren't.

sunsetboulevar · 27/02/2023 07:34

This interview is a backtrack by the eminent historian Stephen Kotkin. Last year, he was one of Ukraine’s biggest cheerleaders. Now he admits Ukraine is losing, the country has gotten wrecked, the US has other priorities to attend to, and Ukraine will need to make a deal.

www.newyorker.com/news/the-new-yorker-interview/how-the-war-in-ukraine-ends

Last year, you told me, at a very early stage of the war, that Ukraine was winning on Twitter but that Russia was winning on the battlefield. A lot has happened since then, but is that still the case?

Unfortunately. Let’s think of a house. Let’s say that you own a house and it has ten rooms. And let’s say that I barge in and take two of those rooms away, and I wreck those rooms. And, from those two rooms, I’m wrecking your other eight rooms and you’re trying to beat me back. You’re trying to evict me from the two rooms. You push out a little corner, you push out another corner, maybe. But I’m still there and I’m still wrecking. And the thing is, you need your house. That’s where you live. It’s your house and you don’t have another. Me, I’ve got another house, and my other house has a thousand rooms. And, so, if I wreck your house, are you winning or am I winning?

Unfortunately, that’s the situation we’re in. Ukraine has beaten back the Russian attempt to conquer their country. They have defended their capital. They’ve pushed the Russians out of some of the land that the Russians conquered since February 24, 2022. They’ve regained about half of it. And yet they need their house, and the Russians are wrecking it. Putin’s strategy could be described as “I can’t have it? Nobody can have it!” Sadly, that’s where the tragedy is right now.

L1ttledrummergirl · 27/02/2023 08:35

Thats a ridiculous analogy as the whole point is that they shouldn't be there in the first place. They have people outside the house telling them to leave and the people in their other house are being starved of everything that makes life bearable.bit also has people jumping out of its windows whilst at the same time is killing those it puts in your house if they don't want to go.

Nobody would willingly give up part of their house, particularly to someone intent on destroying it.

I also think he is wrong.

sunsetboulevar · 27/02/2023 08:41

Apparently he is very well regarded and connected. Kotkin is a top-flight scholar, but his ties to the subject are not limited to the archives and the library. He is well connected in Washington, Moscow, Kyiv, and beyond; his analysis of the war draws on his conversations with sources as well as on his own base of knowledge

Alexandra2001 · 27/02/2023 08:53

MissConductUS · 26/02/2023 23:21

Russia has the ability to keep making artillery and basic missiles forever more and it also has unlimited man power

On the first point, they may be unable to make them fast enough to offset losses and consumption in the field. Russian troops are complaining bitterly on social media about ammunition shortages, and the number of missiles fired has fallen off dramatically. And they can't run their stocks down to zero in case they are attacked elsewhere/

On the second point, there is a finite number of military-aged males in Russia who are fit for service and not engaged in critical employment that exempts them. That number is getting smaller all the time due to losses on the battlefield and men leaving the country to avoid conscription.

The west has consistently overestimated Russia's capabilities. It's a bias that's only now diminishing.

As i said, i hope this optimism is well placed, i find myself hating the Russians with each and every attack they bring to Ukraine and its peoples.

But the West also has limits on the weapons it can give, the type and the actual quantities too.

We have been told for a year now that Russia is running out of weapons, morale is low and troops are deserting.....

My pessimism is based on the fact that Russia still holds around 20 to 25% of Ukraine, has unfettered access to the Black Sea & Ukraine cannot attack into Russia (why?)
Russia has around 85m people aged between 18 and 64, i don't know the exact break downs for fighting age males but they have the mindset to endure as they showed in WW2 & Putin appears to have won over the Russian people into believing this is a battle between Russia and Nato/USA.

You also know the waning support for arming Ukraine in the USA and implications of a republican win in 2024 & not for just Ukraine :(

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 27/02/2023 10:15

Russia has the ability to keep making artillery and basic missiles forever more and it also has unlimited man power.

It hasn't, you know. Read this for more info

www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-february-26-2023

"The specter of limitless Russian manpower is a myth. Putin has already been forced to make difficult and suboptimal choices to offset the terrible losses his war has inflicted on the Russian military, and he will face similarly difficult choices in 2023 .... Russia can mobilize more manpower, and Putin will likely do so rather than give up. But the costs to Putin and Russia of the measures he will likely need to take at this point will begin to mount rapidly."

"Putin may find himself facing another dilemma after another wave or two of reserve call-ups, as the pool of reservists appropriate for front-line fighting is finite. The Russian conscription system generates roughly 260,000 new soldiers each year, drawn in two semi-annual call-ups .....Roughly 800,000 young men turn 18 each year in Russia.[42] Expanding conscription much beyond the 260,000 of those already forced into military service risks not only taking young men with physical conditions unsuitable for war but also beginning to pull too many young men out of the Russian economy, which Putin is simultaneously attempting to put on a war footing."

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 27/02/2023 10:16

My pessimism is based on the fact that Russia still holds around 20 to 25% of Ukraine, has unfettered access to the Black Sea & Ukraine cannot attack into Russia (why?)

Yes it can, if it uses its own weopons. Which it's busy testing at the moment.

BashirWithTheGoodBeard · 27/02/2023 10:34

I think a better way to look at the issue is that people are being insufficiently pessimistic about the Russians rather than too optimistic about Ukraine.

MissConductUS · 27/02/2023 11:02

Bill Burns made some interesting comments over the weekend.

Putin is too confident he can grind down Ukraine, CIA director says

There's no paywall, so I won't bother to copy and paste it all.

sunsetboulevar · 27/02/2023 11:06

The Kotkin interview addresses the issue of munitions. There seems to be an impatience in Washington despite the rhetoric to move onto Taiwan and a realisation materially it's impossible to do both.

There are two ways that major wars evolve. They all start as wars of maneuver because somebody attacks. There’s a lot of movement at first, and then they meet resistance and the offensive stalls out because it’s hard to maintain an offensive, and the other side’s resistance gets ramped up. Then what happens is you radically expand your industrial base for weapons. That’s what the U.S. did in World War Two, and that’s how we won the war.

And so think about this: We haven’t ramped up industrial production at all. At peak, the Ukrainians were firing—expending—upward of ninety thousand artillery shells a month. U.S. monthly production of artillery shells is fifteen thousand. With all our allies thrown in, everybody in the mix who supports Ukraine, you get another fifteen thousand, at the highest estimates. So you can do thirty thousand in the production of artillery shells while expending ninety thousand a month. We haven’t ramped up. We’re just drawing down the stocks. And you know what? We’re running out.

Is Russia running out?

We’ll get to that in a second. But we’re on the hook for Taiwan, and we’re four years behind now in supplying Taiwan for contractual orders of American and allied military equipment. General [Mark] Milley, [chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff], God bless him, he’s there in the Pentagon, in that big E-ring where all the important people sit, and he turns his head because all his stuff is going out the door. Everything in our stocks is going right out the door, right past his desk. And it’s not going to Taiwan, which is a place that we want to send it. And so we would have to radically ramp up production, us and our allies, to fight a war of attrition.

And, at the same time, the sanctions were supposed to destroy Russia’s ability to produce weapons, and that’s not happening. Russia can produce about sixty missiles a month under sanctions. So that’s two horrible barrages against Ukrainian civilian homes and infrastructure, their energy infrastructure, their water supply—sixty missiles a month. That doesn’t include what they’re buying back from Africa that they previously sold. What they’re trying to get in deals with North Korea or Iran. The Soviet arsenal, the biggest arsenal ever assembled—a lot of it is rotting, but not all of it is rotting. Some of the production is still ongoing, not as much as Russia would like, but enough to carry out the strategy of “If I can’t have it, nobody can have it.”

If you’re in a war of attrition, you’ve got to be bombing the other side’s production facilities. You have to be denying the other side the ability to resupply on the battlefield. And you have to be ramping up your production like we did in the previous wars where we were directly engaged, but we haven’t done here. So tell me: How do you fight a war of attrition with your left hand tied behind your back and your right hand tied behind your back? The Ukrainians are amazing. It’s just so inspiring to see what they’re doing. But if we get every inch of territory back—and we’re not close to that—we still need an E.U. accession process. Ukraine will need a demilitarized zone, no matter how much territory it gets back, including if it somehow gets Crimea back. It’s got the problem that, next year, the year after, the year after next, this could happen again.

Alexandra2001 · 27/02/2023 12:09

The ISW is a defence contractor funded organisation, they would of course support greater involvement and a more hawkish response.... not saying they are incorrect at all but they are not unbiased either.

A country of 140m, with huge natural resources? with billions of $ flowing in from oil and gas sales around the World and potentially weapons from china and on going parts supplies too? then there is India trading extensively with the Russians....God alone knows what these two countries are exporting short of weapons.

Do you not see in any danger in this for Ukraine and the wider West?

@sunsetboulevar Agree with that, i think the USA has upped production of artillery 155 shells but UA still uses 152 as well and they are finding that harder to get, Sunak shows no inclination to spend more on defense, let alone production of munitions.
Ukraine is firing 1/5th the number of shells the Russians still are using... 6k per day to 30k from the Russians (caveat Sky News reported this last week) both sides down massively.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 27/02/2023 12:23

We haven’t ramped up industrial production at all.

Yes, the West is. There have been announcements about it. The most recent of them was that Bulgaria is now producing shells that fit the Russian standards so that Ukraine can use them on their Russian heavy hardware.

The US is also ramping up productions, with major contracts being signed. So is Germany.

You have some odd ways of looking at things "Ukraine is losing the war" "we aren't ramping up production". Just not true in either case.

Russia can produce about sixty missiles a month under sanctions. So that’s two horrible barrages against Ukrainian civilian homes and infrastructure, their energy infrastructure, their water supply—sixty missiles a month.

You're ... forgetting .... that Ukraine is now shooting down 61 out of 71 missiles with similar proportions in other attacks regularly. More air defense systems will be delivered, too.

You also seem to be forgetting that the West is heavily supporting Ukraine with energy production facilities and there have been no long term power outages for weeks now.

A country of 140m, with huge natural resources? with billions of $ flowing in from oil and gas sales around the World and potentially weapons from china and on going parts supplies too? then there is India trading extensively with the Russians....God alone knows what these two countries are exporting short of weapons

^Do you not see in any danger in this for Ukraine and the wider West?

Do you not see that accessing some of these resources is very difficult? That Russia has not invested in modern tech in many resource-extraction areas so extraction is going to become more difficult?

Do you not know that Ukraine has a lot of rare earths and in fact, in terms of self-interest the West has a lot of reason to keep supporting Ukraine? China and Russia hold a lot of the West, though Sweden has recently found a gigantic deposit but that will take 15 years to develop to production levels.

Ukraine, in turn, is also among the most richly endowed European countries when it comes to rare earth metals and lithium reserves, with estimates of the value of these deposits ranging from $3 trillion-$11.5 trillion

I'm afraid if you want to live without danger, you'd better help Elon develop rockets to another planet. The world isn't safe; people have been and are complacent but that's the fact.

sunsetboulevar · 27/02/2023 12:39

Fo clarification I'm qouting Kotkin there I'm not that well informed to know othwerwise !

L1ttledrummergirl · 27/02/2023 12:47

Kotkin may be an expert in his own field, but his research could do with some work in this one.
He is stating incorrect information as though it is fact and then putting an inaccurate spin and interpretation on it.

For me that makes him lose credibility and I wouldn't trust him or take anything he says in this matter as truth, I wouldalso question his motivation for lying.

Alexandra2001 · 27/02/2023 12:51

@ReleaseTheDucksOfWar Yet can produce endless supplies of oil and gas? (and sell it worldwide)
i don't think mining iron ore and manufacturing TNT is beyond their means.

You are not addressing the China and India trade aspect.

Its all "Gung-ho Ukraine will win" without looking at the dangers of this conflict for Ukraine etc.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 27/02/2023 12:55

sunsetboulevar · 27/02/2023 12:39

Fo clarification I'm qouting Kotkin there I'm not that well informed to know othwerwise !

Fair enough! I've been following the Ukrainian telegram channels. It puts a pro-ukraine spin on things which I have to keep in mind, I fact-check sometimes and the Kyiv Independent gives sources.

On the basis of what Kotkin says though, like @L1ttledrummergirl I wouldnt trust his information or his spin. Its's inaccurate information and a deceptive presentation of facts.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 27/02/2023 12:57

@Alexandra2001 tbh your interpretation of the unfolding of events and possible ramifications is so different from what I think that there's no point discussing it.

MissConductUS · 27/02/2023 14:36

The ISW is a defence contractor funded organisation, they would of course support greater involvement and a more hawkish response....

There is one defense contractor listed among their 13 major supporters, along with banks, real estate companies, etc.

www.understandingwar.org/our-supporters

News media has also benefited from the war by increased subscription revenue and website traffic. Are they also supporting greater involvement and a more hawkish response because of that?

ConcordeOoter · 27/02/2023 14:45

fedupfufu · 21/02/2023 20:16

There was an LBC listener who called in and said that Russia will nuke the UK first as retaliation for giving Ukraine fighter jets. It wasn't too long ago that fighter jets were considered off the table by the US and the UK. There were also two people on an episode of Joe Rogan's podcast discussing this. The powers that be just seem intent on bringing us closer to nuclear Armageddon. Sometimes it seems like nobody will do anything until it's too late.

You are not being unreasonable. There is absolutely no magical exception preventing missiles etc from killing Britons, and no compelling reason the Russian/Iranian/Chinese geopolitical huddle can't attack the UK at the moment if they want to. The US is apparently unwilling and to a greater extent actually unable to sit them back down in their corner if they choose to make an example of the UK. NATO can't do what the US will not or cannot do.

The best we can do is keep calm and carry on.

MissConductUS · 27/02/2023 15:08

The US is apparently unwilling and to a greater extent actually unable to sit them back down in their corner if they choose to make an example of the UK. NATO can't do what the US will not or cannot do.

Mutually assured destruction deters Russia from attacking the UK or any Nato member.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_assured_destruction

If Russia did attack the UK with nuclear weapons, both the UK and the US would attack them in a comparable manner. It's a treaty obligation under Article 5.

www.fpri.org/article/2022/12/article-5-for-the-next-decade-of-nato/

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 27/02/2023 15:17

Maray1967
Some PP are far too pessimistic about this situation and overestimate Russian capabilities.

I think PP (and Putin) perhaps regard Russia as if it were the USSR. It isn't; it is one part of what used to be the USSR. Those great big showcase military parades in Moscow give an impression of vast might, but it's not necessarily borne out by facts: there isn't room for more than a few thousand at most to stomp around in formation in Moscow.

They and he may have the impression that as during WWII "Russia" can afford to throw unlimited quantities of men into battle to be killed in order to push back their invading enemy (which at present they do not have), but a fair proportion of the men who helped defeat Hitler's invasion were not Russian but from other countries which are not part of contemporary Russia; Ukraine is a notable example, since a large number (probably a larger one than the entire Russian force in Ukraine during this past year) of the Soviet troops who contributed to Hitler's defeat and died in the process were men from what was then The Ukraine.

The Ukraine was a major armaments manufacturer for the USSR; not so for Russia.

Also, we shouldn't forget that Russia cannot afford to post its entire army into Ukraine: it is far too paranoid/sensible to do that. Other borders also must have defence troops available to hold back the ravening hordes who might force their way in at any moment from for instance Estonia.... More seriously, China has a 4,209-kilometre border with Russia which I suspect has to be manned – just in case.

Alexandra2001 · 27/02/2023 15:33

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 27/02/2023 12:57

@Alexandra2001 tbh your interpretation of the unfolding of events and possible ramifications is so different from what I think that there's no point discussing it.

Lol ..... You jumped in on this thread to have a go at my view, not the other way around, i ve given up on the echo chamber that is Ukraine threads, pointless :(
You guys argued with me months ago not to send tanks and patriot as it would take too long to train up and the war will be over by then... i argued the opposite and look where we are now?

I also wanted the West (it would be the USA) to open up the Black Sea, apparently thats a no go on that thread too (even to discuss).... but if you really want this war to end, that will have to happen, whatever the outcome on land, Ukraine can't function if it is blockaded by the Russians.

Yes Russia is not the USSR, even it it acts in the same way but its a mistake to underestimate them too, which seems to be a common theme in the West.

btw i would very much want for you to be right and me 100% wrong, nothing would make me happier.

Jenasaurus · 27/02/2023 16:40

Depending on what news station you listen to there is so much to choose, today I heard that Putin would be 'removed' by his inner circle, which is more likely (I hope than them nuking the UK or any other NATO country.