To be worried about Russia's retaliations on the West?

[fedupfufu]

There was an LBC listener who called in and said that Russia will nuke the UK first as retaliation for giving Ukraine fighter jets. It wasn't too long ago that fighter jets were considered off the table by the US and the UK. There were also two people on an episode of Joe Rogan's podcast discussing this. The powers that be just seem intent on bringing us closer to nuclear Armageddon. Sometimes it seems like nobody will do anything until it's too late.

Maybe we'll see them again once they clock back on.

I don't think that all pacifists are like her. Thank God.

The Quakers are pacifist but very brave people and they have the courage of their convictions.

Have to say though that the survival of pacifism, by definition, depends on others who are willing to fight for them.

@fluffyoverlord

I can't be bothered to watch your youtube video at 3:15 am...

Would have been 6.15am for you, no?

😂

seems that poster won't be back under that name at least.

Russians will ave to carry the shame of this for at least a generation, just as Germans were tainted after WW2.

Fluffyoverlord has been banned now. Sorry but I couldn't help but report them

I'm a bit reassured by the responses calling that poster out.

Agree. They will become a pariah state.

The way that the Germans have rehabilitated themselves and taken ownership of the actions of their government in the 30s/40s is commendable. There is a need for significant societal change in Russia before anything similar would be possible.

Totally agree with both comments. But do the Russian leaders and people have the resolve or will for such changes in their society? We can only hope so.

Unlikely I'd say, at least not in the way of Germany because there is no intention to to step over Russian borders but who knows.

Who could have predicted the fall of the Berlin Wall?

It’s a really difficult one. The Russian population carries deep generational trauma and significant levels of indoctrination. I genuinely don’t believe the ‘all Russians are evil’ narrative however unfortunately many of the decent Russians have either fled or been imprisoned or assassinated.

John Sweeney’s podcast entitled “Taking on Putin” speaks at length about the difficulty of changing Russia from the inside but also of the deep love that he has for the country and so many of its people.

Fear is a powerful emotion and Putin’s administration has kept the population in fear for so long that it’s virtually impossible to differentiate that fear from the people themselves.

Agreed @Igotjelly

Not only Putin but the Soviet and especially the Stalinist era. And probably further back than that

In the medieval age all troops were horrendously savage, but Russia's forces don't seem to have evolved much further and that lies partly in the culture.

No idea of the answer, how Russia can evolve into a better state.

They recently repealed the laws on domestic violence, which shocked me. The only country in the world as far as I know to actively think that protecting people against violence is a bad thing ...

Fucking hell! If that's pacifism I'm a monkeys uncle.
Sadly the people/trolls/bots are actually causing people, including good people to believe such abhorrent views and the hosting sites aren't all doing enough. They take them there in baby steps, small moves in that direction, nudging them along.

Fortunately on this site there are enough people who see it and say it's wrong.

Utterly sickening. But as Putin is happy to put many people into harms way for his own gain, it doesn't surprise me.

There's going to be plenty more generational trauma for Russians by the time this finishes. I'm not sure what'll be worse, losses in the six figures or the return of a cohort of desensitised survivors who've been in an environment where rape, torture and of course mass murder has all been okayed. I wouldn't fancy being married to one of those returning soldiers once this is all over.

Indoctrination seems to be used as an insult to describe any society or population that doesn't adhere to western standards and ideals these days. The truth is all populations are "indoctrined" into thinking their way if life is normal, that's as true of Russians as it is for Americans or Nigerians.

Someone up thread mentioned that Russian soldiers haven't moved on since medieval times in terms of brutality, but again it's not something unique to Russians. War reduces all, or at least 99%, of those involved, to base human instincts and levels of brutality.

In Once Upon a Time in Iraq (a fantastic documentary if you've never seen it) a US recon marine tells the story of how they were trained to think of people as bodies and to scream "KILL" instead of saying "yes" to help dehumanise the "enemy" and programme them to kill without thinking. He also tells about how they shot dead innocent civilians who, becuase they couldn't read the warning signs erected, had approached a roadblock they were maning, men women and children it didn't matter. But you didn't hear about the atrocities our side committed at the time because they needed to maintain the good v evil narrative for public support.

And it's clear that is the narrative that we are trying to set; Russia = Evil, Ukraine / The West = Good. I think the reality is that as long as this war creates profit for the Western War Machines and has majority support from the public it will continue as it is. When profits begin to drop we'll see the usual change of tact depending on public opinion.

If there is still a majority who are supportive I can see us crossing all sorts of lines and potentially even putting boots on the ground. If support from the public has wained I can see us doing the same as we did in the Middle East, switching to the "we need to negotiate now" rhetoric, agreeing a deal and then leaving the Ukrainians too it.

As for the notion that the Russian population is somehow accountable for the actions of the Russian government or that they should be punished until they show remorse I think that is naive at best and extremely dangerous otherwise.

Why is a nurse from Novosibirsk or a plumber from Penza more responsible for their governments actions than a nurse from Newcastle or plumber from Peterborough? The fact that there has been absolutely no remorse or contrition shown by the UK population for our governments actions in the Middle East makes this idea even more ridiculous and hypocritical, especially when you consider that we actually put ours into power through a vote.

Thebestwaytoscareatory there was massive public opposition to the 2003 invasion of Iraq.

But I agree that the whole of the general population of Russia can't be held responsible. I would imagine plenty of them are against Putin's actions, but of course we won't hear about it.

Someone up thread mentioned that Russian soldiers haven't moved on since medieval times in terms of brutality, but again it's not something unique to Russians. War reduces all, or at least 99%, of those involved, to base human instincts and levels of brutality.

Those who examine, forensically, the actions of various armies at war say that the Russians are the worst - worse even than ISIS.

I won't repeat here the stories I've heard - from people who lived in Kherson and from elsewhere - but the level of horror is indeed worse than any other reports except for Unit 731.

Different cultures are indeed different and in some of them the tolerance (indeed encouragement) of brutality is at a different level.

Are you aware that Russia has been issuing Viagra to soldiers to encourage rape of Ukrainian women? UN representative stated that.

I don't think you'll find that the US mass deported tens and perhaps hundreds of thousands of children from their parents to forcibly adopt them.

I think in the end too, the fact remains that Russia invaded Ukraine illegally and is trying to commit genocide by its own admission. That's a lot worse than any other European culture since WW2, Germany and the Balkans war.

I was reading recently that the Russian population can be loosely placed into 3 categories - pro war, anti war and a huge chunk in the middle who simply don’t know what to think.

Lots of British people have a really outsize view of the UK's importance in the world.

If Putin really wishes to have US nuclear missiles rain down on Russia, he can make that happen by sending a nuclear missile to somewhere much closer and more geographically relevant to this conflict like Poland, Germany, Baltic States etc.

We're really not that important - why bother to go to the effort of focusing on London?

We're not that important or interesting.

I don't think Russia can be rehabilitated in the way Germany were after WWII. The atrocities the Germans carried out in WWII largely had their origins in the consequences of WWI, and before WWI they were not considered a "dangerous" state - at least, no more dangerous than the French or the Spanish. After WWI their economy was ruined and the indoctrination that led to genocide etc. was only government policy for 12 years or so.

With Russia, Putin's been in control for 20 years or more and there has been a totalitarian state for most of the last 100. Russians believe what they are told, for the most part, and it would take generations to undo the damage that has been done.

After WWII, the allies were surprised at how quickly the Germans acknowledged their guilt and understood why the world hated them. This enabled them to be rehabilitated astonishingly quickly. I don't think this can be the case with Russia simply because many cannot accept that the glory days of the USSR are over, let alone accept that Putin's machine has been pumping them full of propaganda for 20 years.

Yes! really very odd, their outsize view of the UK!

Presumably they still have outdated views from the days of Empire. London was known as a beacon for oligarchs.