Youngest child is such hard work I don't know how to do this anymore

[strugglingma]

I have 2 dd 5 and 7 that couldn't be more different.
Oldest loves school has never been in trouble and is really easy at home, very well behaved, polite, chatty and fun to do things with.
However her younger sister is the complete opposite, hates school, never does as she's told is hard work, strong willed and I can't even have a conversation with her eg how was school will just get silence.
She smacks me when I tell her not to do something or if she can't have her own way (she's never been smacked) she deliberately winds up her sister which causes her sister to whinge, we can't take her to any shops, as she runs around and I'm just so drained and tired with it all.
I have tried the naughty step but she just says no.

It's unfair on my eldest daughter who misses out on so much because of her, we try and play board games but dd2 will ruin it or if she does craft dd2 will try and ruin it.
I am also a SAHM so this is my life and I love both girls but my youngest dominates the family because she's so difficult.
I feel deep down she is spoiling dd1 childhood because the dynamic would be so different if it wasn't for her and instead of the loving happy mum she deserved she's got a tired, drained mum who is at her wits end.
I love my youngest dearly but she's destroying my soul and the rest of the family.

I think you’ve been given some good points to consider on this thread. But as the elder sibling in a similar situation as a child can I make a plea for finding a way to spend 1:1 time with your elder DD too? There were so many times that the thing I wanted to do was ruined by my younger sibling, it definitely drove a bit of a wedge between us and as soon as I was old enough I spent as much time with friends as possible instead.

Serious discipline?

Lots of other people have also suggested ASD/ADHD. My experience with my DS who is now 9 is that children on the spectrum can be phenomenally good at masking behaviours at school, which means the school see a relatively “normal” child, but that you are left with the consequences of them finally being able to “let loose” at home. Unfortunately for you but in a way, fortunately for your DC, it sounds like she has a safe space at home to do so, the challenge is finding ways to manage that without undermining the entire family dynamic. I know at times for us it has felt like we are all walking on eggshells (I have a younger DD too). 5 is a bit young to be “bored of work” at school as a lot of it is still play based so I would be suspicious something else is going on (eg ASD). If the school has a SENCo they may be of help, as will a GP, although it can be a bit hit and miss. It’s so tough, but keep persisting because it’s in her best interests and your family’s too.

Lots of neurodiverse indicators there. Is she really bendy too?
I've never noticed her being abnormally bendy, she's slim and agile.

@Doctordoomscroller she has a school trip tomorrow which I am also going along to as a parent helper so it'll be interesting to see for myself how she is at school although she won't be in the school setting she'll be with teachers and classmates.

Why do you ask this @adiposegirl2 ? As my DD had dreadful night terrors as a toddler - is there a connection with ND?

From the things you’ve described OP, she sounds like my youngest son. He was a model child at school so my concerns have always been dismissed. He was masking all day and letting it all hang out at home. He’s such a loving boy, but he has his quirky ways and specific needs. It’s only now he’s 14 that CAMHS have supported my referral and are assessing him for ASD. I would refer her to CAMHS yourself or via GP if school won’t take you seriously.

From your list OP I'd say it sounds more like ADHD, but there is definitely enough there to request an assessment.

The waiting time is around 2 years in many areas of the country at the moment if you use the NHS. If you can afford to do it privately it can be done much quicker (within 2-3 months or so). The first step is to talk to your GP and tell them your concerns. If s/he thinks your DD meets the criteria for assessment, they will refer her or, if you want to go privately, write you a letter to pass to the private doctor.

There is some useful info on the NHS website about criteria for assessment and symptoms to look out for and when you speak to the GP you'll be asked to list the behaviours and give examples of what you're concerned about. Take a look at these pages:
ADHD
Autism

She sounds exactly like my dd2. Parenting her is exhausting and I really struggle to like her a lot of the time.
School think she’s fine. I’m convinced she has ADHD. She has no focus. She never stops talking. She can’t watch a 5 minute tv show. Or play a game. Or sit still. Or wait for anything. She didn’t sleep at all until she was over 3 years old.
She’s a bright intelligent funny girl but she is SUCH hard work I feel like I’m constantly telling her off.
No real advice. Just lots of sympathy. It’s hard. Really really hard

I agree, but you aren’t teaching the child anything, apart from segregation and Isolation, by sending them away. You are planting the seed that if you feel negative things, I won’t accept you/you are not loved/it is unacceptable to feel anything but positivity. Because at that age that’s all that action is - a negative feeling within them that is presenting in “naughty” behaviour because they are just still far too young to be able to communicate it in an adult/mature way yet.

You can absolutely teach positive behaviours I don’t disagree with you but parents also need to accept that “naughty” behaviours are a communication - you shouldn’t shame them for doing what is natural at their age (being unable to properly communicate how they feel).

Dealing with the root cause, telling them calmly that the action they did out of frustration is not ok (but doing X, Y, Z is the healthier way we handle that frustration) is good and as they get older they’ll implement this more and more. especially as their brains develop.

BUT the naughty step/standing in the corner is a sure fire way to manifest a lot more negativity and shit mental health in the long term. My opinion anyway - I’m sure we will disagree but that’s by the by x

I recommend getting professional help, there are courses available such as Triple P (positive parenting) your local council will run these for free I think you might need a referral, sorry I don’t remember who it was as it was years ago for me I did this course and it helped.
I recommend getting on a Facebook group called connective parenting…sorry I don’t know how to do a link.
best wishes sorry you have to trawl through all these messages some are so up themselves they obviously have never actually had a strong willed child 🤣.

Don’t worry about what other people say when out and about you will never live up to others expectations.
I have a 3 and 4 year old and the 3 year old is a nightmare, I don’t think it’s down to you as he has been a Nightmare since birth 😂😂😂. However, I won’t tolerate been hit, naughty step whether he likes it or not, take something off her for a day of that doesn’t work.
I can’t really advise you how to change your child’s behaviour, but changing your own mindset helps. Instead of getting stressed now when my child behaves the way he does I just remind myself that is just the way he is, it actually makes me smile sometimes and I’ve grown to love how different he is 😂😂 obviously I still get stressed sometimes but it definitely helps by being more laid back about it. He will grow out of it, hopefully anyway 😂😂 mine also is a little angel at nursery, the staff adore him and want to take him home. I think try it 😅

I haven’t read the whole thread so every chance I’ve missed something but are there any signs she might be above average in terms of intelligence. This might explain why she’s bored at school and acting up. More gifted kids can be quite strong willed, resistant to rules and get bored easily. Does she behave better when you fully engage her in a task or in some way hold her attention with something that engages her?

As somebody else suggested, behaviour is communication. It does sound like she struggles to regulate her emotions. Will this you need to try to model the behaviour and support her even when she is being difficult (it’s really hard).
my son at 5 said he wanted a new brain becasue his made him do things he didn’t want to do. It was heart breaking. We have since found out he is autistic.

please don’t punish her for being her it all adds to trauma. And for girls it’s worse as they can see girls ‘should’ be quiet and behave. I stopped going to shops with my son because it was horrendous but my son wasn’t being naughty he was distressed. For a long time we couldn’t do ‘normal’ things. And now I ignore the looks from other people but it took a long time. But my son is the kindest and most wonderful person. He just needed a lot of help and support.
even if she isn’t ND, why should have to fit into the box? It doesn’t fit her. (I know she has to go to school etc)

obviously hitting other people is unacceptable but you have to teach her another strategy to cope with her emotion at that time rather than simply punishing her.

has your daughter had her eyes tested?
its a good place to start.

go to school, discuss your concerns. You will need them inside if you want to go down the assessment route but don’t let them fob you off. Keep mentioning it. See if there are irl/online groups for support for you.

she may not be ND but she still needs support to regulate and maintain focus. It’s really hard work and relentless but very rewarding and worth it.
the ND strategies benefit all children becasue they are kinder and take the child’s considerations into account instead of the neurotypical way of demanding only compliance, so it’s not going to harm her to use strategies for adhd/autistism but they may really really help.

xx

I am really stressed this morning, she is 5 but cries like a baby, screams and shrieks, it's like living with a toddler going through permanent terrible twos.

We're trying to get to the park but she won't get dressed, won't eat her breakfast and won't stop jumping on the sofa.
I have just noticed my hair is falling out in patches from stress.
My dh leaves before the girls are up and doesn't get home until their bedtime and work Saturdays.
I know I have to carry on but I could cry today. She can be so kind and lovely then she'll run over and give me a big cuddle and say I love you mummy and give me the cheekiest cutest smile.

I went on her school trip as I mentioned and she was running off and not staying with her paired partner, almost in her own little world and it didn't look like she was interested or took anything in but I don't think the teachers noticed.

Has she been tested for autism/ADHD?

No I've only just been reading about it since people on this thread suggested it.
It sounds like ADHD from what I've researched I can't say I've ever looked into it but hadn't realised ADHD could be so hard for people.
I have to say I was quite ignorant, it's not something you'd be educated about if it didn't concern you directly.
Obviously I'd heard of it but assumed it could be corrected with strategy or self discipline.
It's going to be quite a learning curve for all of us.

That's not to say she does of course.

I have to say I was quite ignorant, it's not something you'd be educated about if it didn't concern you directly.

Yeah, I was the same OP. I knew there was 'something' going on with my DS, but I didn't know what it was. I told the GP my concerns when he was three and they screened him for autism and signed him off, because he doesn't have autism and I could've told them that myself. So we had several more years of struggle, he was diagnosed with dyslexia and for a while I thought that that was all it was, but gradually it became clear that there was something else. When I finally figured out that it was ADHD (inattentive type - formerly ADD), it was such a relief.

There is medication for ADHD, which REALLY helps. Obviously, you need a diagnosis first, particularly as it's a strictly controlled drug, but the medication is a miracle. It actually takes away the ADHD - so while your DC is medicated it's like they don't have it. They can function normally, concentrate at school, behave normally, they're calm and reasonable and yeah, it's a miracle! So if you think your DD has ADHD I urge you to pursue diagnosis with as much tenacity as you can muster. She is only five, so you have lots of time

Reading your OP, I thought of neurodiversity and also of high ability that's not being engaged at school. 'Home time takes forever to come' is quite a sophisticated way of expressing boredom at that age.

I do also think that trying not to compare your girls could at least partially be the key to this. Your whole OP is written from a comparative POV. As that's clearly the way you think about it, she will be picking up on this, however hard you try not to show it.

What is she interested in? Does she have any passions? Is it possible that your time with them is based on activities for both that are more pitched towards your eldest? Not criticising - it's easy to do. My older two are two years apart, I read to them loads and I know that the younger one sat through many a book that was pitched a bit over his head in terms of ability and interests. Not ideal, in retrospect.

I completely agree wih heyboooo about the 'naughty step', btw. And 'all behaviour is communication' is a mantra that has helped me many times raising my three (all NT essentially but one with quite a few ND traits).

Hmm, rereading your list of her behaviours makes me wonder whether it would help you to read up on demand avoidance (which is often a feature of neurodiversity).

This sounds familiar, every single step of every day is hard for/with DD. She is my first so I didn't really get how much easier most other kids are, DS has been a cake walk in comparison (I think he's ND too but very different).

I've been thinking about when people tell you "it gets easier" when they were babies and toddlers but for some of us that's not the case. Solidarity!

If you suspect ADHD, fight to get her assessed. I'm going through it now as an adult and it's shit and slow and hard

That does sound like ADHD, but also have a read up on how autism presents in girls as there are some differences. My DD's is mostly sensory issues and anxiety with a bit of demand avoidance, the social issues are much more subtle and only really noticeable in a large group.