Youngest child is such hard work I don't know how to do this anymore

[strugglingma]

I have 2 dd 5 and 7 that couldn't be more different.
Oldest loves school has never been in trouble and is really easy at home, very well behaved, polite, chatty and fun to do things with.
However her younger sister is the complete opposite, hates school, never does as she's told is hard work, strong willed and I can't even have a conversation with her eg how was school will just get silence.
She smacks me when I tell her not to do something or if she can't have her own way (she's never been smacked) she deliberately winds up her sister which causes her sister to whinge, we can't take her to any shops, as she runs around and I'm just so drained and tired with it all.
I have tried the naughty step but she just says no.

It's unfair on my eldest daughter who misses out on so much because of her, we try and play board games but dd2 will ruin it or if she does craft dd2 will try and ruin it.
I am also a SAHM so this is my life and I love both girls but my youngest dominates the family because she's so difficult.
I feel deep down she is spoiling dd1 childhood because the dynamic would be so different if it wasn't for her and instead of the loving happy mum she deserved she's got a tired, drained mum who is at her wits end.
I love my youngest dearly but she's destroying my soul and the rest of the family.

Looking at your younger daughter with compassion and seeing her behaviour as communication / frustration for unmet needs would help more.

IME 5 is young to assess for SEN - but you could look at the lifestyle adaptations for ASD and ADHD and just make them in your home.

Your older DD had you exclusively for 2 extra years and seems to be thriving so let her be more independent and focus more one to one time on your younger DD now.

She's not destroying your family she IS your family.

What sort of things does she enjoy and actually sit down and do? Or is there nothing that can grab her attention?

It could be Sen issues but it could also be something else.

The nursery would have a better idea than some random parent.

Lots of girls with SEN are able to mask at school. Its one of the many reasons why girls are so often diagnosed very late. I'd be less inclined to listen to the nursery and more inclined to seek assessment for my own piece of mind based on my own actual experience of my child.

I'm also always cautious when a child's behaviour is massively different in different settings. That suggests to me that the child is purposefully trying to hide something (most likely unconsciously) and it therefore even more so needs to be managed and understood.

Well, if naughty step isn't working then you need to try something else. Explosive child approach - there's a podcast too - is the most useful for us. Basically you start by accepting that kids do their best and if they are behaving badly it's because they don't have the skills to behave well. The hard work is working together to build those skills.

Hard yes to the pps talking about exercise. Some kids really are like border collies and need a LOT of running around time.

On board games - have you tried coop ones where you work as a team? Vastly easier to manage with explosive kids. Hoot Owl Hoot, Max the Cat, Outfoxed, My first castle panic, zombie kids are all great. There's loads out there.

My son gives 200 a month. I save 100 for him in a savings account.

What’s that going to do with anything? Wrong thread?

Our child’s nursery brushed off this kind of behaviour too. Practically laughed in my face.

Two years later she was diagnosed Autistic and later on ADHD too.

Google Ross Greenes stuff about kids do well if they can. Changes your lens on the behaviour so you can work with your child to help them, not just constantly fight and pick battles neither of you actually wins.

And school at 5 usually sucks for almost all children, some just have higher tolerance and compliance. It looks nothing like what we experienced at school. They are under a LOT of pressure (as are their teachers!) and the expectations don’t align with their stage of development. It’s not an anomaly she is exhausted and bored and doesn’t want to talk about it or do homework.

struggling you'd be amazed at what schools can ignore in children who are masking.

I'd raised concerns for years about my DD and everything was dismissed.
When the shit hit the fan at secondary school the SENCO and teacher tentatively suggested she has ASD. The thing I'd been raising for years with other teachers.
Go with your gut and keep records of everything.

Well I do have a parents evening this week so perhaps I'll raise my concerns to her teacher.

I had the opposite. Ds1 ASD traits, nearly broke me. Ds2 sunny disposition, so easy. Most mums you speak to their children are different. One of the primary mums of ds1 had 4, all very different personalities. Nature and nurture.

Ok yes but what are the “symptoms” that you are concerned about OP? She’s got some behavioural issues like many kids her age. If I was 5 and felt that my own mother thought I was ruining her and my older sister’s life id probably have behavioural issues too. Many 5 year olds don’t like board games and walking around shops and talking in detail about their day.

If she has ASD you’d expect to see some other things too - eg sensory issues, difficulty with communication/social issues, meltdowns, difficulty with transitions - literally none of which the OP has mentioned either at school or at home.

Both my kids are strong willed and a challenge. They are ten and seven now.

The one thing I have found that works is doubling down on love, understanding, listening, attunement and praise. Doesn’t mean they get what they want. Does mean you acknowledge how hard they are finding it to not get what they want.

I’ve done the whole being strict stuff, that was how I thought I would be as a parent, super strict, take no crap. But honestly, it didn’t work. Though I am still strict on boundaries, but just in a different way, that’s works for them and me.

I don't really know what ASD symptoms are.

She is perfectly capable of dressing herself but she refuses to point blank until we are nearly late and I do it.
She gets up from the table after every mouthful and runs round which no amount of discipline will stop, she will leave her dinner unless it's fed to her.
She gets very tired very quickly and chooses to go upstairs to bed it's like she's just stopped or battery went.
She gets very frustrated and angry when she can't manage something.
She is very loving and cuddly and tells me often she loves me.
She finds it hilarious if she is told off.
Shops and restaurants where lots are going on seem to be a trigger.
She's got a very short attention span and is bored very quickly.
She hates going out and would choose to stay in over going out.
She runs around and has lots of energy and laughs and giggles and is either really happy and silly or really angry and frustrated which can change in a heartbeat.
She looks at me with despise and contempt if she can't get what she wants.
She hates walking.
She completely ignores me when being spoken to.
She has no motivation, even brushing her teeth is so much effort.
She doesn't have any particular toys or interests she likes.
She often tells me she wants to be good but her brain tells her not to be.
From a young age she is very independent and although she gives eye contact now she didn't as a baby, I only noticed that as her sister would never break gaze while I was feeding her but I struggled to get her to look at me when she was little but maybe she was more interested in what was going on around the room.

Are these normal behaviours for 5 or anything worrying.

Same. My eldest daughter was like this. She has adhd.

Oh and my eldest hated school so much and was becoming just a shell of a person that I took her out of school completely

I home educate her now with private tutors and it's the best thing I ever did.

There are some things in your list that would concern me somewhat, some things that seem like ADD/ADHD perhaps.

I would want to know if she exhibits any of those at school too, particularly the getting up and running around during meal time, and wanting to be spoon fed. Does she manage during school lunch times?

Regarding "She looks at me with despise and contempt if she can't get what she wants." Those are very adult interpretations of a small child's response, and a very negative interpretation. All small children find it hard to deal with being told no and not getting what they want. Try not to place such big complex emotions onto a normal response from a small child.

It is really very common for girls in particularly to mask their symptoms at school. Many only end up being diagnosed once in secondary school because they’re so good at masking. If she is masking symptoms of ASD/ADHD at school all day I would expect explosive outbursts at home. I’ve taught a number of pupils (secondary) like this. It’s almost unbelievable when the parents describe their child’s behaviour at home. Often it couldn’t be more different at school. Again, this is particularly true for girls.

I have a similar dynamic but it’s my eldest daughter who is explosive, intense, defiant etc and youngest easy going and compliant.
It’s really hard.
I’d recommend reading Janet Lansbury to help re-framing your perspective with her behaviours (hard as it is to not feel very frustrated and fed up).
It’s about not getting drawn into her big emotions and not giving them power. But remaining firm and calm whilst acknowledging them. Obviously this is the hardest part when it’s relentless but the more you can re-frame it the more frequently you can de-escalate it.

You’re her leader and she’s emotionally dysregulated, (sp?) so rather than feeling soul destroyed by it try and see her as a 5 year old struggling in the moments she’s acting up. (Whilst also implementing consequences for unacceptable behaviours.)

“Setting Boundaries with your strong willed child” also really helped me. Though it does recommend time out which is almost impossible for me to do without physical force and seemed to really affect my child’s self esteem so we dropped it. The insights are great though.

I could go on and on as it’s a constant worry but we have much better time now my eldest is 6 and a half (still some bad patches).

She really struggled starting school; it took a lot out of her and she exploded at home. Our home life was awful.
I spoke to her teacher, it helped.
Like yours mine is totally different at school, impeccably behaved.

Maybe your DD is struggling with school- she may well mature into it and her home behaviours improve. It’s a big change.

We also have felt our DD has many symptoms of ADHD but being so “good” at school we’d get nowhere near a diagnosis (BIL is diagnosed ADHD). I do look into what supports children like this though and try and implement.
It’s so hard but it can improve and re finding your confidence in parenting her will help you both. Easier said than done - and I’m terrified of the teenage years!
But I bet she has so many wonderful qualities other than this so don’t lose sight.

good luck xx

She looks at me with despise and contempt if she can't get what she wants.
She completely ignores me when being spoken to.
She often tells me she wants to be good but her brain tells her not to be.

Firstly she’s 5, she doesn’t look at you with despise and contempt, that is your perception and your issue. Also you say she doesn’t speak to you, but also she’s told you how she struggles with her behaviour. You really really need to address your attitude towards her as it’s impacting her behaviour too. You really just don’t seem to like her and that’s not her fault.

Regardless of what school say I would be pushing for an assessment for your daughter an either adhd or asd. She may be able to 'hold it together ‘ at school but not at home. After all it’s her place of safety.
She is young but waiting lists can be long. In the mean time have a look at behavior techniques on ADHD/ASD charity website and see if any resonate.
When my DS was younger his Dad and I had to insist on holding his hand when in a town/shop/busy place. Otherwise he would run off. He was overwhelmed by it all. This was until he was 8. He once ran this whole length of London Bridge. I was terrified that Id lost him. It’s a non negotiable rule that she holds your hands which in these situations - you can Sing, tell stories or play a hand squeezing game. But she must hold your hand.
Walking I used to bridge with smarties. Walk to that lamp post w no complaining and you get a smartie. Small achievable goals - then after time start to stretch the rewards out. If we want for a family walk there was always something fun at the end - a park, a small treats
I have adhd and DC being assessed for ASD and a ND older DC. What strikes me is 1. The intermittent eye contact, 2. The tiredness and overwhelm, 3.the boredom and lack of motivation.
Teeth brushing - you still need to do this probably and she has a go at the end. What might help - a song always sung when teeth are brushed, try those chewable tablets which show plaque that have to be brushed off
,
Dressing we used to have a race.
She does love you. Her behavior is showing you her struggles. I know it is hard and tiring. I have and a there.
Have you tried a weighted blanket ? She might like that.
For dinner time sitting on a wobble cushion might help - it adds a sensory element that may be helpful.
Trust your gut - your mum instincts are talking to you.

Yes, a lot of that list sounds like potential ASD / ADHD. In terms of the looking at you with contempt - there is such a thing as "autistic over-expression" where someone uses exaggerated facial expressions. Rather than the expression coming naturally, they have had to think through the steps. "I feel angry - I can show this with an angry face - I need to pull my mouth down, narrow my eyes, and frown (or whatever)." The result can appear alarming!

You won't do any harm by using autism-friendly techniques to a NT child, but you might do harm using autism-unfriendly techniques on a ND child.

Instead of a naughty step, can you turn a corner or an area into a sensory den, and send her there or go there with her when she is overwhelmed? This made a huge difference with my child. As did using the language of overwhelmed instead of naughty.

I would just dress her and brush her teeth if she isn't ready to do it herself. Wobble cushion and resistance bands round the bottom of the chair for mealtimes. Minimise shops and restaurants, and have lots of distractions including the Mumsnet-disapproval-inducing tablet and headphones. Look up sensory diet and the zones of regulation. Watch Inside Out with both of them! If DD7 wants to do crafts, can you set up a sensory activity for DD5 instead of hoping she will join in and not wreck it? It does give you two activities to supervise but might work out easier than trying to do one activity with two different children.

If it turns out she does have ASD or ADHD all of this will be helpful. If she is dysregulated for any other reason, it will still be helpful. And if she is completely neurotypical but being difficult - it's worth trying something new anyway.

Don't allow her to smack you sorry your the parent and it won't be long before she starts doing it to your other children and worse. I seen it in my sisterinlaws oldest. She wasn't disciplined and then it went from smacking to actually kicking her mum all the time and having temper fits. Luckily even tho it took till she was 6 sister in law decided to change and serious discipline started and only took about 2 months before niece cottoned on that her way was not working now. She's now almost 8 and a delightful child now and just had her first sister born who she adores.

Hi OP, that sounds really difficult. You have two very different DDs and they will each need a slightly different type of parenting. Loving and positive and picking up on their good points for both, but they may need some different "management"; and some of the activities that you can do with DD1 may not be easy or realistic with DD2, or at least not til later.

As well as Explosive Child. you might find a rather old parenting book called "The Parent-Child Game" helpful - it talks about parenting chidren who are "easy", "slow to warm up" and "difficult". It's an oldie but goodie!

I second the advice other people have given you about different activities and play - more physical (large muscle rather than fine muscle), more co-operative games rather than win-lose.

And also, when you tell her to do something, here are some things to try that may work: "when / then" ; "repeat and simplify" ; "threee more and stop" ; "choice of two"; "count to three and consequence".

Repeat and simplify: "DDName, put your coat on. We are going to the park". Count to 10 in your head. Then "DDName, coat".

When /then: "When you have your coat on, then we can go to the park" And repeat, calmly, possibly forever.

Choice of two: "do you want to wear the red coat or the blue?" Two choices, both acceptable to you.

Three more and stop: "It's time to stop stomping in puddles. Three more and then let's walk on and stay dry - three - two - one - and well done". You can try this for anything that isn't outright dangerous / damaging / harmful to someone else; if it is dangerous etc. then you may just have to intervene physically.

Count to three and consequence - plan out a few little, easy, possible consequences, like losing a few minutes of game time or losing a fave toy for an hour or so, or something equally trivial; then say exactly what you want her to do and exactly what the consequence will be if she doesn't do it by the time you get to three; then count to three slow and steady (one-banana-two-banana-three). If she does it when you say "three", all good. But if she doesn't, you do the consequence. Imprtant things are: do not slow down the count and do not go to two and half, not ever. If you think something will take longer than 3, then say you will count to 5 or 10 instead. You can do it with bribes too - "If you do it by the time I say "three" we'll go for sweeties"

Another one is the "running commentary" - it feels a bit insane but it can work really well. Positive, enthusiastic, warm, reporting on what you're child's doing (well not when they are misbehaving or angry/upset, but just when they're doing something) not praising or judging, just "now you're looking for the shoes, will you find them, you're looking under the stairs, you're thinking, where else to try.... hey you found them!"

To me "never does as she's told", smacking you, and running round shops do say possible neurodiversity, along with your other list of things. But potential rather than definite. So yes, good idea to find out how she is in school. And no harm talking to the doctor, maybe try a parenting group for a range of different ideas and experiences.

Sounds like mine who has ADHD. However with your oldest being so biddable and so quiet, I wonder if your levels for 'normal' child behaviour are off. For example, homework isn't useful or indicated for 5 yo children but people expect them to do it happily!

I suggest you read a few parenting books, get a few more ideas. Specifically 'How to Talk...' and '123 Magic'. The wonderful thing about ADHD parenting is that it works for all children. Typical parenting doens't work for kids with ADHD. No naughty steps or banishment. Clear, immediate, natural consequences based on really solid expectations. Doesn't eat her meal, she is hungry. Doesn't get dressed, she can go to school in pyjamas (I discussed this with preschool before I told DD and it wasn't something she would have enjoyed). No warnings or ineffectual threats. Use fewer and fewer words in a firm but neutral tone:

DD please get dressed now
DD clothes now
DD clothes
Clothes

No lists of tasks, they are overwhelming.

The very first thing you have to do is have a positive story about your child. She's strong, fights her corner, is full of energy, knows her own mind, and so on. If you compare her unfavourably with her sister, you won't be able to parent her, and she will suffer (as will you).