Youngest child is such hard work I don't know how to do this anymore

[strugglingma]

I have 2 dd 5 and 7 that couldn't be more different.
Oldest loves school has never been in trouble and is really easy at home, very well behaved, polite, chatty and fun to do things with.
However her younger sister is the complete opposite, hates school, never does as she's told is hard work, strong willed and I can't even have a conversation with her eg how was school will just get silence.
She smacks me when I tell her not to do something or if she can't have her own way (she's never been smacked) she deliberately winds up her sister which causes her sister to whinge, we can't take her to any shops, as she runs around and I'm just so drained and tired with it all.
I have tried the naughty step but she just says no.

It's unfair on my eldest daughter who misses out on so much because of her, we try and play board games but dd2 will ruin it or if she does craft dd2 will try and ruin it.
I am also a SAHM so this is my life and I love both girls but my youngest dominates the family because she's so difficult.
I feel deep down she is spoiling dd1 childhood because the dynamic would be so different if it wasn't for her and instead of the loving happy mum she deserved she's got a tired, drained mum who is at her wits end.
I love my youngest dearly but she's destroying my soul and the rest of the family.

That was my first thought as a lot of it sounds like my DS behaviour.

I have a "hard work" DD but some of her good points are that she is very caring and inquisitive. She gets frustrated and bored easily and will destroy things though. Some of the challenges I feel with her is the difficulty with the fact that she is quite unlike me! I think once I step outside of my disappointment that she doesn't react like I do or enjoy the same things, and instead I find curiosity in learning about what she is all about, I do a bit better with it.

It sort of suggests ASD, PDA even, OP.

That sounds a lot like my DD who is being assessed for ASD. Although it took having a meltdown in school before anyone would believe she wasn't just strong willed.

She's getting a bit old for sitting on a step but if you decide she goes there then she goes there, if she refuses you put her there and return her as long as it takes. Sending her to her room might be better though.

I had this problem with DS, he'd never have stayed in his room, and I tried the naughty step with no luck at all as I felt the constant returning him was just feeding the bad behaviour, as he just took it as attention.

I wonder if perhaps you’ve got into a way of life that suits your eldest’s character but it just doesn’t suit your younger one?

You mention shops, craft, board games. Age 5 is young for shops and board games IME. What about physical activity? My eldest gets tired easily and loves to read and craft but my younger one is very physical and needs to let off steam. So we have to split our time between quieter time at home and intense exercise at the park or playground! We also have signed DC2 up to more activities at the weekend to tire her out. Apologies if this is a red herring and you do loads of this already.

Try to see her stubbornness as a good thing - she’ll never be a pushover! I know it’s hard work but as she gets older she can be taught that she’s only hurting herself by fighting you all the time.

I would make it clear how cooperating benefits her - DD, because you finished your breakfast quickly, we’ve got more time for X fun thing, well done. DD, because you refused to put shoes on, we’ve run out of time for the park. Naughty step and reward charts never ever worked for my defiant child but this approach did (over time).

Oh and don’t worry about other adults’ judgments. Do what you know works best for your child and if they think you’re being too lenient - sod em.

Five is still quite little. It sounds like she has a shorter attention span than her sister and gets bored more easily.
Maybe you need to change the way you do days out? My DD went through a phase of being quite unbearable in shops, so we stopped doing that and I avoided taking her with me even for food shopping. We were both much happier. Lots of structure works for her. Knowing exactly how long we would be somewhere, etc. Eating out was not a pleasure for many years.
After school - get feedback by asking very specific questions and making it not a chore. I used to ask what's the most fun/boring/silly/annoying thing that happened today? Refusal to engage probably just means she's moved on from school for today and doesn't want to talk about it. My DD had very strict rules about school/not school and would take it as far as not talking to school friends if we saw them out of school because they 'belong' in school time not home time (she is a funny onion).

The other thing which might help is to reframe the things you find hard about her personality as positives. I.e. stubborn as forthright/ knows her own mind/feirce/ independent/strong/ powerful.

So in other words you're not being consistent and you're letting her get away with so much that random strangers are telling her off for you because you're sat there doing nothing? That's not a good look I'm afraid OP.

Naughty step I'd outdated and not recommend, for any age. Reward charts work very well. It is just expression and communication. When she acts up she's trying to communicate with you, you need to sit down and talk to her about what's she's going through at that particular time.

Why is she being forced to do homework at 5 when she is already struggling with the kong day ?

Maybe school ia difficult for her either because she is neurodiverse or because she is 5 ! We have huge and unrealistic expectations of little kids i find.

I woulld keep an eye out for more signs of adhd or autism especially with the explosive temper

But it may be she just needs to run around a lot !

I second this! Also asked open ended questions about her day.

I have tried the naughty step but she just says no.

Well this is your problem.You do not enforce any boundaries!

Draw up a list of very few house rules eg doing as parents say , kind hands and feet etc and enforce them properly.Every time.If she gets off naughty step, you put her back.again and again.

I have two thoughts on this.

1. It does sound like she's a high energy, physical child and you're trying to keep her to low energy activities. Some children need a lot more time outdoors and doing physical things than others. DS wasn't hugely active, but he absolutely started to go crazy if he was at home too much. Even now, he'll take himself outside to play football or ask if he can go to the shop if he's at home for too long. Can you try to incorporate more non-home activities into her routine. And perhaps do these things one on one more. more trips to playground. Join a sports club. Go swimming. If she can ride a bike, go for bike rides etc.

1. A lot of these behaviours do suggest she might have some SEN so I would be considering having her assessed. SPD, ASD, ADHD all have elements of this sort of behaviour and the fact that she behaves at school (mostly) could be a sign of masking - so her frustrations are coming out at home.

We do try hard to keep things fun so she behaves but other people's expectations are higher than ours because they don't know that's actually an improvement for her so when she's acting up but not as bad as she has done we try to pick our battles but then other people expect you to discipline or they start telling her off in shops or restaurants because we haven't but we are trying to pick battles not let her do as she pleases as it looks to onlookers when she's actually behaving much better.

I would develop a thick skin and not worry about other people's possible judgemental thoughts. If anyone starts to talk to her directly in a public setting then address them immediately and repeat a stock phrase like "I appreciate your concern but your interventions are not helpful" and don't engage with them beyond that.

It's not about keeping things fun so that she will behave, but more about recognising what's reasonable for a 5 year old to deal with, and enabling her success rather than setting her up for failure. So, limit trips to shops to short periods of time with a specific goal in mind and with ways to engage your DD prepared in advance. Be ready to leave if her behaviour spirals and she isn't coping. Go to restaurants where you know you will be served quickly and think of ways to engage her whilst you're waiting. This is easier when there are two adults, as one of you can take her for a walk outside if necessary.

I find it really depressing how people come on and start talking about naughty steps and discipline for a 5 year old who is struggling to a) control outbursts of anger b) is struggling with the long day and discipline etc at school

There are other more thoughtful approaches here that do not involve shaming the child for impulsive behaviour.

Ross Greene - who wrote the book the Explosive Child - wrote - children behave well if they can/ when they can

If they aren't - it's because they can't in the situation they are in and they need support

I have a child with explosive behaviour - she has an autism diagnosis but we didn't know that when she was 5 -

Even if this child is not autistic - it is absolutely within a normal framework for some 5 year olds to find it harder than others to control themselves

This little girl may need more exercise than others she may be a high energy child compared to her sibling - perhaps she just isn't emotionally ready or phyuscially ready to sit down all day at school

so many possibiliites - all kids are different - try to meet the needs of this child rather than judge and shame them (not blaming you OP - its bloody hard having a child like this - Im just blaming the people jumping in shouting about discipline)

Thanks ok. So in Foundation she’s still getting used to long days without you and she’s already said she wants the end of the day to come. Sounds like she’s struggling with the demands of a long school day but can’t articulate this. Even if schools feel she’s coping, she could just not have enough in her tank when she gets out of school to manage herself and her emotions. Sometimes chill out time / quiet time with no questions asked if her, snack, tele etc until she’s ready to engage after school (my lo is 5 too and this works well) plus maybe bring her bedtime forward for whatever it is now. Also what does she enjoy? What make her laugh? It may not be the same stuff your DD1 likes but it’s equally important and sounds like more fun is needed I all of your lives right now! X

and as someone above said - if people judge you - say calmly - thanks we are dealing with this at home - a good line I was told by an autism expert

perhaps start acting as if your child has extra needs ie. sensory needs, a need to move, a need for clear boundaries on what is happening and when - a need to avoid situations like board games and be clear on when she is. moving into the 'red zone'

This does sound a LOT like one of our nephews. We all suspect ADHD .... except his parents.... so I would suggest discussing assessment with the school or your GP.

But also, becuase he is such hard work, we all find we have to make a real effort to focus on the good things. Unfortunately, his parents tend to yell ineffectively when he's bad and ignore him when he's good.

He behaves better at our house because he has learnt that there are boundaries he is not allowed to cross and also that if he behaves well he will be praised and rewarded. And after endless days of him hurting DD at theirs with no real consequences, DH and I Agreed we'd no longer put up with it and the next time it happened, we got up and left. SIL was furious and felt w were being precious. But we had to protect DD. and you know what else? He hasn't hit her since.

So moral of the story - you need firmer boundaries for the negative things and you need to be very proactively and enthusiastically praising the good. And possibly getting checked for ADHD or other SEN.

Another parent suggested ASD after a play date saying she was a handful but the nursery seemed surprised and brushed that off as nonsense.

It's unfair on my eldest daughter who misses out on so much because of her,

I feel deep down she is spoiling dd1 childhood because the dynamic would be so different if it wasn't for her and instead of the loving happy mum she deserved she's got a tired, drained mum who is at her wits end.

I think that you need to take a closer look at how your attitude could inadvertently be fuelling this.

It seems that your perfect golden older daughters activities and happiness rule the house whilst you seem critical / judgemental of the potentially age appropriate needs of your younger daughter.

You seem perhaps a bit rigid in your own expectations and thinking and maybe socially anxious yourself?

I tend to find with my 5 year old that if I leave her and don't ask questions she then tells me what she has done at school.

Mine is very strong willed too and isn't very at listening although will repeat it back to you perfectly if you ask her. I think some children are harder work. Mine also struggles to just walk and not run!

She isn’t ruining your family, she IS your family, she’s what you’ve got, not some imaginary scenario with 2 of your eldest child. She’s not ruining anything and that attitude can only harm both of you. I understand the difficulty though, mine are similar ages and similar temperaments, although possibly not to such extreme as I can manage the youngest by planing activities ahead. We don’t do homework but we do read atleast one page every night so it’s short and sweet.

and I can't even have a conversation with her eg how was school will just get silence.

With both of mine I can’t get any info out of them after school, but I do their bedtimes separately (eldest watches tv downstairs while I do stories with youngest, then take eldest up for stories after), and right before bed we do ‘best thing worst thing’ every night without fail, they tell me the best thing and worst thing about their day and I tell them the best and worst about mine. It really gets them talking about random stuff that’s happened at school and helps get some info out of them, even if some days it’s only that maths was boring or pudding was great etc. might be worth a try to help with communication.

My youngest DS had no issues at nursery, beyond fairly age-typical moments. The issues became apparent throughout his first year at school, and he is now being assessed for a possible diagnosis. It's possible that there is an underlying cause to your DD's behaviour, or it could be that she is finding some aspects difficult due to her personality and her preferred way of being.

In a way, that doesn't really matter, as you can start to change how you deal with her regardless. No need to wait for a diagnosis, if one is appropriate.

Mine can also get bored very quickly!