To pull away from my close friendship because of her kids

[abouttimeforu]

My close friendship is with my sister. We are extremely close. My child can be very challenging , currently waiting on ASD assessment , attention seeking and has a hard time managing his anger although this has improved greatly .
My child struggles socially and doesn't have many friends.
He is also so kind and loving, very sensitive , thoughtful and funny He is 11.

My sister's two children are by and large, rude and moody. Their mother will often put this down to tiredness and hunger but reality is they are actually just rude and moody, mostly

They will engage with my child when there's no other option but if there are other kids around, they will practically ignore him.
So for example if we were grouping up for an activity, they will purposely say that they want to do x with 'Jen' and completely omit to mention my child's name or include him.
Despite him being the only one left out.
My sister does not intervene or correct them. I would be disgusted if my kids did this and very ashamed tbh.

Her attitude is that they don't have to socialise with people they don't want to socialise with .... until they have no one else and then ask to socialise with my
Child .He has been too available .. my fault.

To me he seems only good enough for them as a stand in but tbh I'm highly sensitive about this issue and biased.
I am very protective of himSo at times I am guilty of overthinking and over reacting when it comes to how I view his interactions with others , when In fact, he is absolutely fine with being on his own sometimes.

My child is always with me when we see my sister and her family. I generally make the effort more as her kids are younger and I have the time.

I think that for my sons self esteem and general happiness, I need to move away from the intensity of the contact , when with my child. He craves their attention and his self worth is so low that he will tolerate being second choice or not a choice at all, as the case may be.
This has only developed recently and I'm
Disgusted if I'm honest but then again , I'm highly sensitive when it comes to him.

My sister has zero insight with her own kids and has never once stepped in and said to her children, for example, to include my child or insist that he be part of a specific group that they were creating. They feel
Very Comfortable leaving him out and she feels very comfortable enabling that .
So, can you advise me here. I really need objectivity thanks.

I will add again that I can be very defensive as he was always labelled the 'troublemaker' which he was mostly, but not always, and always the one that was blamed when there was trouble among them... again, it was mostly him but not always. He has that label now though sadly as it has stuck.
Thanks .

This is a really lovely and encouraging post.

There is a big difference though between treating someone with respect and being friends with them. As a child I understood all of the above and treated people with kindness but I still didn’t want to spend time with other kids whom I did not feel comfortable with and no amount of adult intervention would fix that. Having to constantly have time outs or call an adult to intervene would not endear me to being friends with another child if I had to do this just to feel comfortable with them.

The cousins absolutely have a responsibility to treat their cousin with kindness but they are absolutely not under an obligation to be “friends” with someone they don’t want to be. Friendship is not something that can be enforced by others, it just can’t. It’s natural and organic.

That equally applies to the OPs son- there could be plenty of kids his age that he might get along with splendidly. If it were me, I’d stop focusing solely on family for sourcing friendships and focus on finding other children he gets along with and shares common interests with. Finding friendships that naturally work for him will be far more fruitful in the long run than trying to force friendships only within the narrow range of his family group.

Sister’s perspective[…]My two children can be rude and moody. This is often down to tiredness and hunger.

They will engage with their cousin when there's no other option but if there are other kids around, they will practically ignore him.

My sister thinks I should intervene or correct them. I feel like she is disgusted with my kids and very ashamed.

My attitude is that they don't have to socialise with people they don't want to socialise with .... when they have no one else and then they ask to socialise with their cousin. He is always available .. my sister is always available

That might be the sister’s perspective or it might be more along the lines of:
”I tell my sister they’re moody because they’re tired and hungry, but that’s just to save her feelings. They never want to come to these family gatherings - because he will be there. He made their time miserable when they were younger and now that’s what they associate with these family gatherings. He brings out the worst in them because they expect him to shout and upset them. I have to threaten and bribe to get them here at all. If I told them they had to play with him they’d spend the whole holiday crying.”

I had a nephew who had behavior issues that caused my son not to want to be around him when they were kids. It was enough that I backed off from those relatives and kept my time with them to a minimum because of it.

But whether my kid was the one with the behavior problems or on the receiving end of another kid's behavior problems to a serious degree, I would put my child's best interests first, because I was responsible for his wellbeing.

So to answer your question, to me it sounds like being around these relatives is detrimental to your son. And your sister has denied your requests to change the situation in any way. Therefore, I would back off from them.

That might mean just short occasional visits or structured activities, as has been mentioned, but not vacations or long visits. And if you see your son is being left out, maybe invite him to come sit by you and include him in the adult conversation, or take it as a cue that it's time to leave. If your sister's kids feared your son, I really doubt they'd come play with him whenever there weren't any other kids there to play with.

I agree that your sister is teaching her kids poor manners. Whenever I hosted guests, my son knew he was expected to host any of their children who attended. And when we were guests at someone else's house, I expected him to behave like a guest. He would not have been allowed to ignore a guest's or host's child or single them out for exclusion while including other kids who were there. To me, that's very rude.

But when this nephew of mine was around, I also kept a close eye on the kids and stayed ready to intervene when necessary. I'd have them play near where we adults were visiting, not outside or in a far part of the house. Good luck with it.

If you think most posters be sympathetic towards your autistic son, rather than his NT cousins, don't hold your breath.

I'd feel the same as you about wanting to create some distance.

I don't think the effect of spending a decade regularly in the company of a child who is 'very challenging', attention seeking and aggressive should be underestimated. Some empathy towards the cousins too is also required. All of these children have some maturing to do and perhaps some recovery from the trauma related to previous interactions. To better understand, when you say 'hard time managing his anger' - has your child hit their cousins or damaged any of these things, or it is just verbal aggression (which in itself can be scary)?

I suspect they engage when there are 1-2-1 because they don't have the fear that your ds will embarrass them in front of their friends and their friends will pull away from them.

I mentored a young girl, about your ds age, on a holiday once. She had a slightly older sister who had learning difficulties. Nice girl (the sister) but very attention seeking, and expected everything to fit round her.
The younger sister told me in tears that she found making friends very difficult because her dm always expected her to take her sister to everything she was invited to, or if she had friends round her sister had to join in.
Her friends very quickly got bored of being told what they had to do by the sister, and then wouldn't invite her and didn't want to come round.
She genuinely loved her sister and wanted to help, but she also wanted to make her own friends and not always to have her sister there. I would see that the love was going to turn into resentment.
I know the group leader (after I spoke to him) spoke to the dm and tried to explain and all she'd say was "it's good for the younger one to take responsibility".

The other thing, as others said, children have long memories.
I remember the first time I met one set of dh's cousins. His brothers spent the time in the car going there telling me not to phased by the behaviour of one of them, he'd be rude, selfish....
Well, we arrived, and he had perfect manners, lovely lad. On the way back I asked them if they'd been winding me up, and they thought about it and then realised that he hadn't really been like that for some time.
If he has caused issues with them in the past then they are going to be nervous, even if he has totally changed.

It sounds very difficult all round, and I have empathy for all. I don't understand the posters who seem to think they are the righteous ones by being horrible to the cousins and calling them horrible and spoiled etc. They are just kids too so why no understanding of the fact that they have had years of having no choice with interaction with someone who is (from their perspective) mean, aggressive and and bullying of them?
The fact that there's posters putting things like family stick together no matter what is ludicrous, am assuming they've never read the 'Stately Homes' threads or do the cousins feelings and opinions not count because they're children?

I have about 30 cousins - both my parents have multiple siblings, who all have multiple children.

I am not friends with any of them. I barely see them. We have very little in common. I used to dread forced family time as a child, having to spend afternoons playing with my cousins. If my parents had tried to push us on each other regularly, I would have hated it.

Just because you and your sister's children are the same age, doesn't mean they should be friends or enjoy each others' company. As an adult, how would you feel, if someone made you spend every weekend with someone you had nothing to say to, and who made you feel stressed or anxious? You're doing the same to your own child, and your sister's children.

You need to get some perspective on this. Your child's additional needs clearly make him a challenge for other children to be around, and asking an 11 and 12 year old to be sensitive to his needs and essentially tread on eggshells around him all the time isn't fair on them. They should be free to spend time with who they like, when they like, and while I think your sister should be more proactive in ensuring they're at least polite and as inclusive as they can be with your son, as letting them be outright rude and unkind isn't ok, I do also think she has a point in saying it's not fair for her to force them to spend time with someone they clearly don't feel comfortable around.

As others have said above, you may not have the ability to see how your son's behaviour has impacted on your nephews over the years. While I am sure he has plenty of wonderful and loveable qualities, your nephews have obviously experienced a lot of difficult, negative and perhaps even abusive behaviour from him, and it's unreasonable of you to continue to expect two children to put up with that. Why should they? As an adult, you wouldn't, so why would you expect children to do so? I have come across this a lot in teaching, when parents with children with severe SEND resulting in negative behavioural traits are outraged that other children won't play with their child and why aren't I doing more about it to force socialisation - and my answer is always I will never force children into a situation where they feel unsafe or uncomfortable - I will encourage kindness and understanding, but I will not enforce children having to put themselves in a position of harm in order to meet the needs of another.

It's a sad situation and I do sympathise, but I think perhaps you need to be a little more open to seeing your sister's view on this as a parent to her own children who she is trying to protect and support, just as much as you are trying to protect and support yours. I think it's time you started spending more time together without your children, as then you will be able to focus on your relationship without your differences about your children coming between you.

What I think is saddest about the whole thing is that neither of you seem to love each others' children. My nephews - my sisters' children - are the joy of my life. I adore them, warts and all. I assumed everyone would feel the same about their nephews/nieces. Perhaps I just got lucky.

Every child needs to learn social skills, but many neurodivergent children (and adults) find it harder to learn.
There's no way you can get around the issue that being able to cope in a social situation is essential. Other people and institutions can be aware and make limited accommodation, but the focus will ultimately need to be on learning to cope socially to whatever extent you can.

As for expecting tolerance and accommodation from other neurodivergent children, in my experience they often find it even harder than neurotypical ones to get along together. The ideal of shared experience leading to understanding applies more to the parents than to the youngsters in most cases.

Pull back on the kids being together rather than your relationship with your sister. He doesn't want to continue feeling like a consolation prize, nor feel like they're just putting up with him. That makes you feel shit. They're all at that age of working out friendships and social awareness and no kid is going to get it right all the time. I'm autistic and remember that age well.

I so agree with the last paragraph. The OP seems to have zero positive feelings or love for her own nieces/nephews - is quite disdainful of them indeed. Ironically, she then expects these children to put themselves out for their cousin, to in fact show more love and understanding than she shows them. And she's the adult! She seems to view every interaction entirely through the prism of her own son..Clearly her sister is not overwhelmed with love or care for her nephew either. It's all a bit sad really

This is good advice.

I can only imagine how painful this is.

Especially the engaging when it suits them.

Step completely back and focus on activities that will be fresh with fresh faces.

Unfortunately it sounds like you are flogging a dead horse here so don't put either of you through it.

There are some brutal teens out there that never get a word of direction about kindness said to them, especially at that age.

Your sister is suiting herself and allowing her children to do likewise.

Not very kind within a family but we can't change others.

Use your energy to find new activities he enjoys.

I hope things get easier for you both.

I feel for you and can relate somewhat although my kids don't have cousins the same age.

My son is 11 and has adhd. He's never been hyperactive but he's impulsive, loud, likes attention, and struggles socially by talking too much and not knowing when to stop, and struggles to read others social cues. He's matured massively & gets better every day but I'd say he's still 2-3 years behind socially.
At primary the friends he had would tolerate him because they were forced to be in the same class together every day.
Now they've gone up to high school they've dropped him. Only now 6 months in is my son slowly starting to make friends.
11/12/13 are ages of big change .unfortunately as much as you love your son you can't force other kids to enjoy their company. I would imagine the cousins tolerate your son because they have to. And then when there are other kids there they will choose them instead over him.
The only thing you can do as the parent is either shield him from it by withdrawing, or just accept the situation for what it is

Simply this relationship isn't working anymore and you need to acknowledge this. There is no reason to pull away from your relationship with your sister, but neither should your son be scapegoated and be picked up and put down to suit others, neither should his cousin's be forced into a friendship with him.

Enjoy your relationship with your sister and have adult time and maybe just meet up occasionally with the wider family/kids.

Your sister is right in a way, she doesn’t have to force them to play. But you said yourself that it could cause confidence issues in your son and I think this needs to be your main focus. I don’t think your sister nor her children are in the wrong necessarily, especially as your child has been difficult in the past. But your his mum, you need to protect him and I think that forcing a relationship with cousins who treat him second rate could have negative effect on his development.

Id encourage social interaction with children he plays well with and see your sister without the children when you can. Dont blame your sister though, neither of you are wrong in this situation, you just both want to parent your children your own way which has its own consequences.

I would do what is best for your child.

Go on holiday without extended family and focus parts of the holiday around your son’s specific interests where possible (Animals, science, Lego, whatever) so that he finds it more enriching.

At this age he should be developing his own friendships more and moving away from family focused activities. Focus your energy on helping your son to organise having a friend over/going to a friends. Or where friendships are lacking, sign him up to go to activities he would enjoy and where he could meet new people (scouts, sport, tech class, or if the autism is more severe there are organisations that will organise days specifically for children with ASD to socialise).

If your son has a special friend who he gets on with, bring them along to family dos, this will ensure your child is not left out and that he is calmer and more contented around the family circle.

With issues in the past, it can’t really be undone and you aren’t going to change your sisters parenting style. In reality most people have little contact with cousins once they reach adulthood and/or grandparents are deceased. So really I wouldn’t push your son into being massively integrated with cousins whenever their behaviour is detrimental… It’s more important that your son develops relationships with people he actually likes and who are nice themselves.

They’re not friends though, they’re cousins.

I’m sorry op but as the mum of an adhd child and autistic child both with different personalities and needs I can sympathise that you are protective as my youngest is also the loud bossy attention seeking getting left out one etc but that said I agree with your sister I would never force family or friends kids to play with him and include him because he can be and is at times too much for other kids to cope with and while yes that’s sad it’s not the other kids faults and they shouldn’t be forced to be around a child they find difficult to interact with and u happy to play with just because he’s ND. It is sad but I’m afraid it’s fairly normal when the child has additional needs

It’s not really a great way to approach the issue - to tell your sister that her rude, obnoxious children should be nicer to your son. It’s also a bit odd to apparently think her children should actually be ignoring your ds all the time, for consistency’s sake, rather than only when there are more agreeable children around to play with… It is quite possible her children do find your ds difficult company all the time, but are not quite hard hearted enough to exclude him when it is just the three of them. When there are other children in the mix, it is likely your ds’s behaviour becomes a bit harder to handle if he is poor in social situations with new people, and also likely his cousins do not themselves have the social skills to get him seamlessly accepted into the group without ructions, so they unfortunately opt for the easy life - understandable to an extent if you are frequently in their company, as they are not being given any choice but to be around your ds all the time and it is wearing to have someone who is not actually a friend inserted into your friendship groups on a frequent basis.

It’s tricky OP. I’m sure there’s fault on both sides- maybe the consequences of his past angry, controlling behaviour do mean they prefer not to play with him if there’s another option these days.

Maybe take a break for the dynamic for a while. Could you just meet your sister for a drink without kids for six months or so?

I don’t know any cousins who if given the choice between playing with their friends vs forced play with their cousins would pick their cousins tbh.

You’ve got to remember these children lived though and saw and where involved in those negative behaviours your son showed that will of put them off mostly likely making them not want to play at all but actually being forced to by your sister when they have no other excuses. The hungry and tired is likely an excuse by them/sister as they are just too on edge by the previous behaviour.

Your son absolutely does deserves to be someone’s first choice though but that doesn’t mean he has to be his cousins first choice.

My younger two will play with their cousins if they have too they are not necessarily keen apart from my youngest but once playing can and do enjoy it.

My older child 13 will absolutely not entertain it despite being the oldest child because of years of forced play or rather forced being annoyed/poked/prodded/followed by one of cousins under the lines of but family it’s your cousin be nice and play when all this child did was be in their face wanting it their way even when my son would just be sat on the sofa minding his own business.

This is a really good post.

Children, even family, aren't required to be friends. However, the fact that they pick him up and drop him when it suits them is nasty, bullying behaviour and I would put a stop to it. If any of my friends or family thought this was an acceptable way to treat someone, I would think a lot less of them. I don't tend to stay friends with users.

Am I the only one who grew up with a sibling that would drop them like a stone the sooner a better option came along ha?!

I honestly think choosing friends over family is quite a normal part of childhood

Exactly forced family play is exactly that forced. Friends is friends.