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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

WIBU to tell this man to back off shouting at the pharmacist assistant?

356 replies

SurferRona · 18/02/2023 22:44

I was in a large pharmacists earlier to pick up antibiotics and a man being served by an assistant in front of me suddenly started shouting at her telling her to ‘say please, if you want me to pay’ that ‘you don’t just say that’ll be £21.01, you say please. Now say please and I’ll pay’, ‘I expect you to be courteous and say please to me, say please and I’ll pay’…. Properly angry. The woman was youngish and looked scared, and didn’t seem to know how to respond, or what to do. So I called across to him to back off, there was no need for that, couldn’t he see he was scaring her? He then turns on me telling me to keep out of it, nothing to do with me. I responded again saying it was to do with me as he was bullying a scared young woman, which was also racist (assistant looked to be of south Asian descent), there no need for it, and he was clearly just having a go at a young woman just trying to do her job. The male pharmacy manager then came over and the man quietened down. He then kept saying he wasn’t racist- but I thought it was as he wouldn’t have behaved like that to a white man serving him, and did quieten down once the male pharmacist came across. WIBU for intervening like that? My other half keeps telling me to keep my neb out of things like that, but I just kept thinking what if it were my daughter…. How else should I have dealt with it? If at all? I have no idea if I just made it worse for the young woman assistant☹️

OP posts:

MrsSkylerWhite · 19/02/2023 10:52

Good for you. What an arsehole. If you see him there again, record and report.

Countdown2023 · 19/02/2023 10:56

Well done for supporting the shop assistant.

The more people get challenged on this sort of behaviour the better.

I volunteer at a community club and the attitudes and behaviours of a small minority of older (60upwards) pale males is shocking. I pull them up on stuff every time channeling my inner ‘I am very friendly but mess with me and your body will never be found’ approach.

koko @SurferRona

oakleaffy · 19/02/2023 10:57

The “racist” comment was completely unnecessary and could have really embarrassed the young woman.

There are some very unstable people about, and it’s best to be very calm in situations like this, using words carefully, otherwise it can inflame the situation. (Seen it happen ) where person who tried to intervene was turned upon.

Even security guards didn’t intervene.

fUNNYfACE36 · 19/02/2023 10:58

Well she should have said please !
I think you assuming you need to swoop in and protect someone because they are brown, female and young says more about your prejudices than the man shouting. Why on earth would you think she was scared, (embarrassed maybe) and the man was a dick, but I would have felt quite patronised by you announcing I was 'scared' like some child!

Butchyrestingface · 19/02/2023 11:03

But I thought it was as he wouldn’t have behaved like that to a white man serving him, and did quieten down once the male pharmacist came across. WIBU for intervening like that?

I don't think adding your own gloss to the scenario is necessarily helpful. He may well be the kind of equal opportunities shopper who is rude and obnoxious to ANY female sales assistant, regardless of race.

So when (rightfully) being pulled up for his behaviour, he will now be even LESS likely to take heed of the reprimand and examine his behaviour because HE knows that her race had nothing to do with his response. Which is a shame, because he deserved to be called out.

Calphurnia88 · 19/02/2023 11:07

fUNNYfACE36 · 19/02/2023 10:58

I worked in a lot of customer facing roles when I was young (from 15 to 20).

Some people are dicks. I wish people like this OP had been around to stand up for me when I was talked down to by rude customers.

And come off it. Saying That'll be £X instead of That'll be £X please does not in any way justify being this woman shouted at.

maddy68 · 19/02/2023 11:09

I'm not sure you can be certain he was being a racist but I would definitely have told him as well

Myfabby · 19/02/2023 11:16

Tonkerbea · 19/02/2023 10:45

And racism isn't a 'card' to be played. It's insidious and it's everywhere and everyday. Just because you don't think racism isn't featuring in an interaction, doesn't make your judgement a definitive ruling. You'd have to be incredibly arrogant to decide ' Nope, definitely no racism here!'

This thread has upset me a bit, just when you think the majority of people understand what racism is, Mumsnet brings you crashing down to earth.

This with bells on

and at the idiot @Xol who dismissed years of slavery, rape, pillage and dared to be patronising with Perhaps apply a bit of thinking. You are so RUDE. How dare you?

junebirthdaygirl · 19/02/2023 11:47

GoodChat · 19/02/2023 08:30

Well that's a huge leap...

Show quote history

Well as my family business happens to be in this sector it is definitely not a big leap!!

funinthesun19 · 19/02/2023 11:53

This man once spoke to me like a piece of shit when I worked in a supermarket. I had just served him and his wife at the checkout, and a couple of minutes later he came storming back over, accusing me of overcharging him and how annoyed he was at me. His wife looked mortified and kept wording “I’m sorry” to me. He was an embarrassment.
I didn’t over charge him. I just put the shopping through. It wasn’t my job to know every single offer in the store and to notice whether things had gone through at the correct price. But he really did like to blame me for it! I told him he’d need to go over to the customer service desk and they will correct it for him. He was insistent that I did it, but I couldn’t at that the checkouts so again I pointed out where he needed to go. His wife was ushering him away and eventually he gave in and moved away. Still complaining that I was incompetent and stupid.

The whole time this was happening, new customers at my till were waiting and to this day I am really surprised that none of them told him to piss off and get lost.

Kroot · 19/02/2023 11:58

SurferRona · 18/02/2023 23:00

thats interesting @coffeecookie, on the way home I was worried that I was maybe being a bit ‘white saviour’ with it, if you know what I mean? (I am white). He didn’t use racist language, no, but I definitely thought her race was a reason why he felt able to be so abusive. Maybe more of the unconscious discrimination, and because of her sex/gender, and age too. Thanks for all comments PPs, I feel less worried about it now!

I think you did the right thing. Well done.

Those saying the person wasn’t racist - correcting people’s use of English language or accepted norms of behaviour IS implying the person isn’t English and needs to be corrected. It’s racist.

Xol · 19/02/2023 12:07

aonbharr · 19/02/2023 09:54

this exactly, shame on you OP, why the fuck do you tie that to racism. He sounds a bit mentally unwell and you put 2 and f together and you post on here, pull your shit together.

Show quote history

RTFT. Plenty of people have pointed out why racism is highly likely, and certainly people just reading about this on the internet can't claim to know better than the person who was actually there at the time.

Xol · 19/02/2023 12:09

GoodChat · 19/02/2023 09:55

Manners?

Show quote history

It's perfectly possible to be polite and professional without saying "please: all the time. It's not as if they're asking a favour from the customer, after all. There's nothing about the word "please" which means that its absence automatically makes a request bad mannered. In fact, if you want to you can make the word "please" sound the height of rudeness.

Xol · 19/02/2023 12:16

whereaw · 19/02/2023 09:56

To label someone'a racist' is inflammatory and tells the assistant that you perceive it as being a race thing as to why she is being treated like that. There are examples here where similar things happen between an old man and young woman and race is not a factor.

It might have been racially motivated - but no one can know that, apart from the man himself.

She didn't say 'you are a sexist' 'you are a misogynist' but said 'you are a bully' (correct) and 'you are a racist' (possibly- but how can you know?)

You can call people out on their behaviour, and you should (I would too) but to tell them who they are and their innate motivations, values, inner thoughts and beliefs goes far beyond this. Especially from a snapshot moment like this.

If you are going to say that no-one can ever be accused of racism unless they admit to it, it's obvious that you would be issuing an open invitation to racists everywhere. It is fair enough for the person who witnesses racist conduct to call it out.

To take your argument to its logical conclusion, OP equally was not entitled to point out to this man that he was bullying a scared young woman, because she didn't know the precise state of his mind, whether he intended to bully, whether he intended to scare the woman, whether it was relevant to his decision to behave in that way that the victim was young and a woman, yaddah yaddah. Which would obviously be ridiculous.

HikingforScenery · 19/02/2023 12:21

Thank you for not just standing by and allowing the assistant to bullied and abused. The country would be a much better place for everyone

Xol · 19/02/2023 12:22

Norriscolesbag · 19/02/2023 10:14

It was nice for you to stand up for her, but I don’t agree with you calling him racist. That is a very powerful insult to throw around. He was a bully certainly but you have no evidence to know if it was to do with her race. If anything I find your stance on this quite racist- in your head she’s of south Asian descent so this must be valid reason enough for the cause of his nastiness? As if it’s something inferior to begin with? Valid racism certainly tackle but this was not. Or if it was you have no certain way of knowing.

Don't you think the person who was there is better able to judge whether racism was involved than you?

Have a look at @Namechanger355's post at 10.09 for a perfect explanation of how racism constitutes a whole lot more than the form of words used.

Xol · 19/02/2023 12:25

Abraxan · 19/02/2023 10:21

But why do you assume her sex played a factor but not her race - when you have no actual evidence of either

Experience over the years I think.
A man is much more likely, in my experience, of being aggressive against a woman than towards another man.

I suspect he would have been less likely to shout aggressively as a man even if they were if a different race.

I didn't say age or race wasn't a factor. Both may or may not have been. Just, imo, not as big a factor as sex.

But from years of seeing and hearing the way some men act toward women I believe that sex will have played the greatest part.

No one actually knows but that's what I feel.

It is probably true that this man would have been less likely to be so aggressive towards a man of a different race, but that will have much more to do with basic self-preservation than lack of racism - a man is inherently more likely to be able to retaliate, possibly physically.

Xol · 19/02/2023 12:27

Show me someone who trots out the term "the race card" as a denial of racism, and I'll show you a racist.

RemoteControlDoobry · 19/02/2023 12:28

I had an experience with a man like that just the other day and I’m still reeling from it. My male neighbour witnessed it and didn’t intervene. If only you’d been there!!! I’d usually stand up for myself and I’d always intervene but I was so scared I couldn’t speak and felt physically ill.

GoodChat · 19/02/2023 12:30

@Xol another poster responded in the same way about the tone with the use of the word please and you're both completely right

Xol · 19/02/2023 12:30

fUNNYfACE36 · 19/02/2023 10:58

Maybe OP realised she was scared because, ooh, I don't know, she was there at the time and could see the assistant in question?

Lululeman · 19/02/2023 12:37

Namechanger355 · 19/02/2023 10:09

Some posters are talking nonsense and need to educate themselves

im a south Asian - but older, professional and very confident now. Racism often doesn’t involve actual slurs but micro aggressions and institutional racism. These days if someone tries it with me I don’t take it at all!

does sexism/misogyny require a man to literally say to a woman: I am better than you because I am a man? NO

yet we assume he is sexist without any other evidence

the same is true of Racism. Yet for some reason people dismiss that without any evidence either way - which is scary

the whole issue poc face is institutionalised racism and micro aggression - j don’t need to be called an obscene word or to be told to leave the country to suffer racism

the fact that he shut up when the man approached doesn’t mean he is not racist - even if the man was a south Asian man he presents more of a threat than the young girl

a racist man probably wouldn’t insult Mike Tyson to his face! (Or Barack Obama for other reasons) - doesn’t stop him thinking how he thinks

I totally agree with you. I posed the question why people thought it was sexism and not racism and someone responded by assuming that I was saying it wasn't right to accuse him of racism - not my point at all!

If you see someone shouting at a person of colour, a woman, a working class person please assume that there is an "ism" going on, and at least ask them if they are OK after the event. I wouldn't necessarily accuse the perpetrator of any of those things but I would definitely tell them that they were out of order and help the victim of their abuse.

The OP is one in a million because most people turn a blind eye, which means that people feel that they have a right to their awful behaviour.

Xol · 19/02/2023 12:41

Myfabby · 19/02/2023 11:16

This with bells on

and at the idiot @Xol who dismissed years of slavery, rape, pillage and dared to be patronising with Perhaps apply a bit of thinking. You are so RUDE. How dare you?

Show quote history

Hilarious that you call me rude and an idiot for saying "Perhaps apply a bit of thinking" without noting that it was actually @Ponoka7 who said that. And indeed you sling around personally directed accusations without looking at my other posts on this thread which make it very clear that what you accuse me of is the very reverse of my actual views.

Who do you imagine comes out of this exchange looking the most idiotic and rude, @Myfabby?

Lululeman · 19/02/2023 12:45

MyPurpleHeart · 19/02/2023 10:08

Did you honestly refer to yourself as a 'white saviour'

She doesn't say that she is a "white saviour" but questions if the action was "white savourism". There is a distinction here.

The OPs posts and some responses to it make me feel a bit more optimistic as what I have been observing lately (from society in general/from this government) has made me fear that people are increasingly accepting of racist behaviour. The OPs posts make me realise that there are many who aren't - which gives me hope.

Lululeman · 19/02/2023 12:54

Abraxan · 19/02/2023 10:21

But why do you assume her sex played a factor but not her race - when you have no actual evidence of either

Experience over the years I think.
A man is much more likely, in my experience, of being aggressive against a woman than towards another man.

I suspect he would have been less likely to shout aggressively as a man even if they were if a different race.

I didn't say age or race wasn't a factor. Both may or may not have been. Just, imo, not as big a factor as sex.

But from years of seeing and hearing the way some men act toward women I believe that sex will have played the greatest part.

No one actually knows but that's what I feel.

And you're right about experience and feelings! Because my experience has led me to feel that race plays a bigger factor than my sex.

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