Page 8 | WIBU to tell this man to back off shouting at the pharmacist assistant?

SurferRona · 2023-02-18T22:44:35+00:00

I was in a large pharmacists earlier to pick up antibiotics and a man being served by an assistant in front of me suddenly started shouting at her telling her to ‘say please, if you want me to pay’ that ‘you don’t just say that’ll be £21.01, you say please. Now say please and I’ll pay’, ‘I expect you to be courteous and say please to me, say please and I’ll pay’…. Properly angry. The woman was youngish and looked scared, and didn’t seem to know how to respond, or what to do. So I called across to him to back off, there was no need for that, couldn’t he see he was scaring her? He then turns on me telling me to keep out of it, nothing to do with me. I responded again saying it was to do with me as he was bullying a scared young woman, which was also racist (assistant looked to be of south Asian descent), there no need for it, and he was clearly just having a go at a young woman just trying to do her job. The male pharmacy manager then came over and the man quietened down. He then kept saying he wasn’t racist- but I thought it was as he wouldn’t have behaved like that to a white man serving him, and did quieten down once the male pharmacist came across. WIBU for intervening like that? My other half keeps telling me to keep my neb out of things like that, but I just kept thinking what if it were my daughter…. How else should I have dealt with it? If at all? I have no idea if I just made it worse for the young woman assistant☹️

OoooohMatron · 19/02/2023 10:17

I'd have done the same as you. On the other hand though some of the customer service in retail is shocking. Saying please and thank you should be a given.

chocolatebrownie123 · 19/02/2023 10:17

aonbharr · 19/02/2023 10:00

He doesn't sound well and by the posts on here, I can't feel sympathy for anyone that fucking pathetic anymore. Jesus grow a backbone.

Show quote history

Grow a back bone? To let people bully others? No thank you. You’re the pathetic one in this instance.

Clymene · 19/02/2023 10:18

TeddybearBaby · 19/02/2023 10:15

@Clymene You’re making a lot of assumptions there 🤣. That’s the trouble really, loads of assumptions being made all over this thread.

Your last paragraph is true but I wouldn’t correct anyone and I wouldn’t really care about their bad manners.

I was challenging your assumptions

It's an assumption to say that please trips off the tongue and it's deliberately rude not to say please.

Sentence structure is not the same in every language and a lot of languages don't pepper every single sentence with please the way the English do.

melj1213 · 19/02/2023 10:20

GoodChat · 19/02/2023 10:03

@melj1213 yeah I'd say please regardless of what had occurred before.

But that is different to saying that you need to say please because of manners.

You can be perfectly polite without explicitly saying the word please.

You can be a total cunt even if you say the word please.

Manners are not defined solely by the word please, you can be the most well mannered person and not use the word provided you are polite, pleasant and courteous to the other person which the staff member was in the OP.

Abraxan · 19/02/2023 10:21

But why do you assume her sex played a factor but not her race - when you have no actual evidence of either

Experience over the years I think.
A man is much more likely, in my experience, of being aggressive against a woman than towards another man.

I suspect he would have been less likely to shout aggressively as a man even if they were if a different race.

I didn't say age or race wasn't a factor. Both may or may not have been. Just, imo, not as big a factor as sex.

But from years of seeing and hearing the way some men act toward women I believe that sex will have played the greatest part.

No one actually knows but that's what I feel.

WineIsMyMainVice · 19/02/2023 10:22

Well done you!!
we must never stop calling out bad behaviour towards others.

TeddybearBaby · 19/02/2023 10:25

It's an assumption to say that please trips off the tongue and it's deliberately rude not to say please.

I never said please and thank you should roll off the tongue! I just said it does for me and it feels uncomfortable not to say it. I never said the assistant was deliberately rude either.

Makingupfactstosuitmyagenda · 19/02/2023 10:29

Clymene · Today 05:26
Suzi888 · Today 05:09
His behaviour was abhorrent but she should have said “that’s £21 please.”
Why?

@melj1213 totally agree with you. Lots of ways to be polite. Trotting out ‘please’ robotically or sarcastically doesn’t make an interaction polite.

I remember being 17 and told I was rude and didn’t deserve a job by an older bloke with a stick. My crime? He was stood at a till that wasn’t open so I approached said ‘sorry, that’s tills not open, can you go to the next one?’ and I moved all
the shopping-he had put out for him , as I thought elderly + stick he would find it hard to gather everything up. He watched me do this without moving and I stupidly even thought he might thank me but no, he roared in my face because I hadn’t said ‘please?’, of course his real problem was he wanted me to serve him on a till of his choice which I couldn’t do as there’s no cash drawer in closed tills. Because the interaction didn’t go exactly how he wanted it to, he thought it was ok to roar at me when I’d been perfectly polite. Saying ‘please’ was just about him being in control and holding the power. There are some customers who want you to grovel in honour of their presence; there are others who think shop workers are thick and don’t deserve basic good manners, there are others who are sexiest and racist.

Makingupfactstosuitmyagenda · 19/02/2023 10:30

Sexiest?! I mean sexist of course!

crazycatladyof6 · 19/02/2023 10:34

Well done for standing up

Cocobutt · 19/02/2023 10:37

YANBU to call out rude behaviour.

I can’t stand rude people especially when they’re being loud so others can hear (although a previous thread would disagree with me when it’s a woman being rude).

YABU to bring race into it.

Not everything is racist and the race card didn’t need to be played.

melj1213 · 19/02/2023 10:37

Clymene · 19/02/2023 10:18

I was challenging your assumptions

It's an assumption to say that please trips off the tongue and it's deliberately rude not to say please.

Sentence structure is not the same in every language and a lot of languages don't pepper every single sentence with please the way the English do.

Show quote history

I was born and raised in England but spent over a decade living in Spain and when I first moved there it took a long time for me to get used to how direct their speech is, they don't use please and thank you as punctuation in the same way a lot of English people do and tbh I prefer it.

For example if I went to a cafe here I'd ask "Please can I have a coffee?" whereas in Spain you'd just say "I want a coffee" which sounds rude to an English person but is perfectly polite there as it is said with a polite tone and questioning inflection so is not the harsh demand it would be in English.

But even if it was a "demand" why is it rude to go into a place that says they sell coffee and tell them you want one? In English we tend to "request" things as opposed to asking for them - "Can I have ...?"; "May I ..."; "Could you get me ...?" etc - which sets up a dynamic where the staff are fulfilling or denying your request but the expectation is that you will say yes and saying no is a negative experience. Whereas in other languages they are more direct - "I want ..."; "Get me a ..." - because it's a statement of what they want which the staff member can either agree or refuse to provide. This sets up a dynamic where you state what you want and the staff can tell you if they can fulfil your need but the statement doesn't weight either answer above the other

It's a subtle difference but the dynamic shifts to one of more equality - if you want a coffee from somewhere that sells coffee, why are you asking a question that you only want an affirmative answer to when you could make a statement and allow the staff to tell you whether they can/will fulfil it?

Tonkerbea · 19/02/2023 10:39

Those accusing OP of racism for noting the assistant was of South Asian heritage, honestly, you're part of the problem.

To say you don't see colour, is to deny the experiences and microaggressions POC have to endure constantly.

OP, you did a good thing supporting the young woman, I'd want you on my team over half the posters on this thread!

GoodChat · 19/02/2023 10:40

That's a fair point @melj1213

LT2 · 19/02/2023 10:42

YANBU. Well done for having a go at him. Just because she was Asian, does not mean it was racist though. He probably backed down more with the manager because he's the Manager, and possible because he's male.

funinthesun19 · 19/02/2023 10:43

Good I’m glad you told him! We need less people like him around. His behaviour was unnecessary and he was using his power as “the customer” to belittle her and boss her about. Especially because she was a young female. I very much doubt he would have been an obnoxious twat towards a man, even a young one.
I don’t think this was about her race. But it’s absolutely everything to do with his hatred towards young women.

amonsteronthehill · 19/02/2023 10:44

Abraxan · 19/02/2023 10:21

But why do you assume her sex played a factor but not her race - when you have no actual evidence of either

Experience over the years I think.
A man is much more likely, in my experience, of being aggressive against a woman than towards another man.

I suspect he would have been less likely to shout aggressively as a man even if they were if a different race.

I didn't say age or race wasn't a factor. Both may or may not have been. Just, imo, not as big a factor as sex.

But from years of seeing and hearing the way some men act toward women I believe that sex will have played the greatest part.

No one actually knows but that's what I feel.

Completely agree.

Surely posters have seen the numerous threads/posts about men who get aggressive and shouty at female drivers ... but turn and walk away the moment they realise they'd mistaken a male for a female (long hair) or a male is in the car that they didn't clock initially.

Too many bullying men feel entitled to shout at females because they view them as 'lesser'.

I don't think it's a stretch to guess that a lot of these men are also racist.

Tonkerbea · 19/02/2023 10:45

And racism isn't a 'card' to be played. It's insidious and it's everywhere and everyday. Just because you don't think racism isn't featuring in an interaction, doesn't make your judgement a definitive ruling. You'd have to be incredibly arrogant to decide ' Nope, definitely no racism here!'

This thread has upset me a bit, just when you think the majority of people understand what racism is, Mumsnet brings you crashing down to earth.

Calphurnia88 · 19/02/2023 10:46

whereaw · 18/02/2023 23:10

The thing is, she might have just thought 'horrible old man having a go for no reason' now she think's horrible old man having a go because of my race'...

Unfortunately I suspect a woman of her age is probably all too familiar with racism in this country.

@SurferRona YANBU for standing up for this woman. I would like to think I would have done the same thing, however, I don't think it was necessary to bring up her race. He could have been racist (we don't know), he could have been sexist (we don't know) but we do know he was rude and that was all you needed to call him out for.

ASimpleLampoon · 19/02/2023 10:47

I think you did right and thanks for standing up for her. I do think it's more likely than not that race played a part but I'm the mother of mixed race kids so that probably changes my perspective. I've seen enough people have OT T reactions to minor things D H has supposedly done to not think otherwise but of course white p p s are going to deny that automatically.

Pandermonium · 19/02/2023 10:48

As a former pharmacy tech I hugely appreciate you standing up for her!
The amount of times I've been shouted at is disgusting.
Pharmacy staff are leaving in droves partly due to the poor working conditions but mainly due to the way the public abuse them.

I'm not sure why people think it's alright to take their anger and frustration out on people that are trying to help them. Or why pharmacy are expected to just put up with it. NHS have signs saying abuse will not be tolerated but because pharmacies are technically not under the umbrella (although expected to do half the doctors jobs these days!) We have to just deal with it.

Sorry went into a bit of a rant there 😅

Thank you for being a good person!

Calphurnia88 · 19/02/2023 10:49

Tonkerbea · 19/02/2023 10:39

Those accusing OP of racism for noting the assistant was of South Asian heritage, honestly, you're part of the problem.

To say you don't see colour, is to deny the experiences and microaggressions POC have to endure constantly.

OP, you did a good thing supporting the young woman, I'd want you on my team over half the posters on this thread!

Agree.

People who accuse others of racism for noting another person's race, or make claims that they don't see another person's race do make me cringe.

Anti-racism is not being ignorant of the fact that different races exist.

KattyKattyKatz · 19/02/2023 10:51

The assistant should have refused to serve him . I did that a few times when I worked in retail . I used to say I think its best if someone else serves you today and walked off . Its was actually company policy to remove yourself from abuse . Companies have a duty of care towards you and cannot discipline you for doing so .

schoolsoutforever · 19/02/2023 10:51

well done for intervening. I would like to think I would have done the same. I can certainly see this as a sexist issue and perhaps racist and ageist too (although I might need to be there to get the inference). In any case, I am really please you intervened and it probably made the man at least consider his attitude if nothing else.

Maverickess · 19/02/2023 10:52

melj1213 · 19/02/2023 10:37

I was born and raised in England but spent over a decade living in Spain and when I first moved there it took a long time for me to get used to how direct their speech is, they don't use please and thank you as punctuation in the same way a lot of English people do and tbh I prefer it.

For example if I went to a cafe here I'd ask "Please can I have a coffee?" whereas in Spain you'd just say "I want a coffee" which sounds rude to an English person but is perfectly polite there as it is said with a polite tone and questioning inflection so is not the harsh demand it would be in English.

But even if it was a "demand" why is it rude to go into a place that says they sell coffee and tell them you want one? In English we tend to "request" things as opposed to asking for them - "Can I have ...?"; "May I ..."; "Could you get me ...?" etc - which sets up a dynamic where the staff are fulfilling or denying your request but the expectation is that you will say yes and saying no is a negative experience. Whereas in other languages they are more direct - "I want ..."; "Get me a ..." - because it's a statement of what they want which the staff member can either agree or refuse to provide. This sets up a dynamic where you state what you want and the staff can tell you if they can fulfil your need but the statement doesn't weight either answer above the other

It's a subtle difference but the dynamic shifts to one of more equality - if you want a coffee from somewhere that sells coffee, why are you asking a question that you only want an affirmative answer to when you could make a statement and allow the staff to tell you whether they can/will fulfil it?

Show quote history

It's a very good point, I work somewhere with a high tourist presence especially in high season and also with a lot of corporate guests that are from various different countries.

Honestly some of the rudest people I have served have used please and thank you as a verbal weapon almost. And people who say "I'll have...." Or "I want..." Are some of the most polite a respectful despite their lack of the use of please and thank you. And they take "Sorry but that's not available right now" or wait as it's not available or it's going to take longer because physics, not that it's a personal insult by the person serving towards the customer.

But I think this

It's a subtle difference but the dynamic shifts to one of more equality

Is the issue, we still adhere to an unofficial class system in many areas in the UK, and equality is not wanted between the customer and service staff, and customer service staff must show deference towards the customer at all times, and it's perceived as an attack if that deference isn't there or if it's not up to the standard the customer has decided they deserve today. It's a transaction, you pay money in return for an item or service, you are not owed deference. (General you there, not aimed at quoted poster).