To think female groups are hard work

[Peckhaminn]

I've found I perform much better one on one than in girl groups. All my life I've got along with men and find their banter much more enlightening and humorous than female banter.

I don't seem to stick well I'm girl groups, often the one push out or the one that's too 'open'. I just find men much easier than women and I was wondering if this is a common issue?

Totally agree with this. I had three wonderful and completely platonic (at least from my end) friendships with men over the years and all ended or drifted away as soon as they got married. It was never stated explicitly but it was very obvious their wives weren’t totally comfortable with them having female friends. This has never happened with any of my female friendships.

Well a man is less likely to take issue with his heterosexual partner having a female friendship, isn't he. That doesn't mean he wouldn't object to her having male friendships.

In all honesty, I think you are just not very observant of male group behaviours. They may try to talk it through less and involve outsiders less (eg teachers), but they do not all just get over disagreements after a little tussle. Systematic bullying occurs on a massive scale in boys’ schools. I know plenty of people harmed by the gaslighting, the surreptitious undermining, the casual cruelty, the deliberate exclusion, the making others look bad in front of authority figures when they react to the goading at the wrong moment. Because “boys will be boys,” it’s far too easy to tell yourself disagreements have been resolved with a small tussle and that’s that - easier than trying to find out a truth that they don’t want to share with you. Men bottle things up, they don’t forget the slights and the hurts, they just know it’s not something men talk about, and sometimes this has explosive results years later. It is seldom women who go on mass shooting sprees.

"If it’s true of groups of 3 women it’s likely to be true of groups of 3 men."

I haven't seen it in men and I don't think male and female friendships are the same. That doesn't mean there aren't wide differences among men and among women too.

"Well a man is less likely to take issue with his heterosexual partner having a female friendship, isn't he."

Yes, although there's a thread at the moment about a man who won't let his wife go out with single female friends in case they talk to men so jealous and controlling people can always find something to complain about.

"I have never seen that type of behaviour amongst men at work."

I've had to work around 'feuds' and huge power battles between men at work to be honest.

Really not true. There are both men and women who will drop their friends once they get into a serious relationship and others who don't.

A woman who will only be friends with men has a far higher chance of this happening though.
For one thing, women who reject female friendships purporting to be 'different' from other women, are often treated with suspicion by the men's female partners, and the friendship discouraged.
For another, the male group dynamic changes as they all settle down. Socials either include their partners (leaving no place for their women avoiding female mate) or they are 'boys only' which would cause partners to question the inclusion of the one 'special woman'.
In reality, few men would rock the boat in their relationship to include their female friend in the group. By nature these fun, 'banter' orientated groups that the OP is talking about (shes referring to social groups, not close friends) are pretty superficial, and the woman they're in relationships with will be priority for the men.

"A woman who will only be friends with men has a far higher chance of this happening though."

yes, maybe. In my experience some people drift away once in a relationship and or decide to only socialise with other couples and that affects male and female friends equally. With some male friends, I've become friends with the new girlfriend so all good.
Not all women who tend to have male friends are ones who purposely reject female friendships, sometimes it just works out that way.

Having friends of the opposite sex is always slightly more difficult because of society's expectations (eg people who don't even believe it's possible) rather than the friendships themselves.

I think it entirely depends, I used to work across an group of offices in a previous role and there were a group of men in one who were friends outside of work also, I’d often join them for drinks/nights out etc. and found them to be terribly bitchy/cliquey in the end so pulled away.

with women I think it depends entirely on the collection, also what I have noticed is 1/2 bad apples can spoil the mix. I was friends with a lovely group centred around a shared interest. We had such a nice time. Recently two others have become involved and it’s changed the dynamics MASSIVELY. One is very, very dominating and outside of this one interest doesn’t really have much in common with anyone else yet she dominates a lot of the chat/conversation. The other is just a bit of a mean girl. Makes snide remarks, backhand compliments and tries to ‘syphon’ off individuals. The whole group feels meh now. But as it wasn’t like this before it’s obvious it’s just these two individuals. Obviously I’d never have fully worked that out if they’d been part of it from the start.

I agree with this. I have one platonic male friend who has been in two serious relationships in the 15+ years I've known him.

I've met his girlfriend a lots of times and stayed with them when visiting their city.

It helps that they're both secure, liberal people.

In contrast, my last boyfriend became very controlling and hated me spending time with any men in any context, including gay men.

Not all women who tend to have male friends are ones who purposely reject female friendships, sometimes it just works out that way.
I agree, though in my experience those women that you describe tend not to be the ones who describe themselves as 'not like the other women' and don't tend to make sexist generalisations about women. They're not invested in the idea of being special and different and cool.

Anecdotally, I think that men kick someone who’s down whereas women kick someone who’s (trying to get) up. So women’s cruelty is more common but men’s is more vicious.

I wonder who the male friends are - I don't often see a woman/women with the alpha males on the eg golf course, perhaps you are a bit geeky so you have geeky male friends.

For one thing, women who reject female friendships purporting to be 'different' from other women, are often treated with suspicion by the men's female partners, and the friendship discouraged

Yeah, I will never understand women who dislike all other women and yet consider themselves to be "different". It smacks of massive insecurity to me and seeking validation from men comes across as being really quite desperate. I have male friends, I have female friends. I make friends with people based on how we get on, mutual support and common interests. I cant imagine making some weird rule that I'll only be friends with 50% of the population by virtue of their gender. Thats pretty awful stereotyping and a very narrow and frankly, quite hateful view of the world. Men are far from perfect themselves.

Very possible but you make it sound as f there’s something wrong with that.

There is something wrong with saying men are easier to get in with than women as some kind of blanket statement. It’s certainly not uncommon to favour one to one interactions over the interactions of groups, as it is easier to keep track of the purpose and direction of a one to one conversation than a group interaction. However, there is definitely something wrong with seeing yourself as incapable of getting on with your own sex, especially if you say you get on better with men but, actually, you are only talking about a small subset of men in a limited set of social situations, anyway, and you, being a woman, are clearly part of a subset of womankind, not a lone freak.

If you are not even trying to interact with men in the same way you are trying to interact with women, then the problem really does rest with you and your slightly odd ideas of what you should be able to get out of a relationship. Why, after all, would you understand that men do not want to talk about your vaginal fluids, but be surprised if women don’t fancy talking about them, either?! You are basically just saying you get on better with some people than others and are not particularly good at developing anything deeper than surface level relationships, so are generally more comfortable in male company and with banter than you are with female company where you feel you ought to be capable of a closer emotional connection. You have a dh, so have presumably succeeded in having at least one deeper level connection with someone. It is not the law that all “proper” women must have immensely close relationships with other women, or all “proper” men have immensely close relationships with other men.

I’m not the OP but hopefully she will manage to wade through all of that.

@Nooyoiknooyoik - I know you’re not the OP, that’s why I didn’t @ you.

I have never in my fairly lengthy life heard a woman express a specific desire to discuss 'vaginal fluids' with other women. It sounds like the sort of thing a weird type of man would enjoy imagining groups of women discussing.

Yes, that's what struck me, @5128gap

Peckhaminn
I have had so many female groups and fallen out with all of them from bitchiness or finding them too 'girly' and they found talking about personal things such as periods or vagina fluid 'gross' it's just weird

You are the common denominator

Sounds as if you're absorbed in talking about sex and bodily functions/fluids with both men and women. Not everyone is interested in that, and would deem you weird if you're intent on it

Men will include you on the off-chance you'll have sex with them one day. All it'll take is another woman to come along and be pliant and flirty, and talk about sex with them as you do, and then you won't be their interest anymore.

I know women don't like to hear or admit this but it's often the case they love male attention and gain validation from it. & think they're special when they get it. When in reality, majority of women could have same if they were bothered. I have 2 male friends I've known for years (we don't chat about sex or bodily fluids...). As much as I love them, they'd never replace my female friends.

Not sure why you're on a woman's forum moaning about women. Maybe Dadsnet or similar would be more suitable and give you the answers you want. Aside from that if you're happy with male friends then good for you, its each to their own isn't it.
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I prefer a hand picked group of some of my favourite friends. Mix of sexes is irrelevant.

But if it’s going to be a less controlled group of friends, friends of friends and acquaintances then a fairly evenly mixed group works best for me. I don’t find all-female groups cliquey or bitchy. But I do find groups dominated by one sex tend to have a more limited range of conversation. I have a lot interest in some typically male subjects, but also no interest at all in watching sport, which is what mainly-male groups tend to end up discussing. I like some typically female subjects a lot but have no interest in celebrity gossip which most mainly-female groups seem to end up discussing.

So a mix is good.

I do think men tend to talk to you differently when you’re one of only one or two women in a mainly male group than if it’s an even mix of the sexes and I do quite like that attention, though I’m not quite sure what it is (it doesn’t really seem like flirting). But if you’re there for any length of time it almost always seems to end up turning to sport anyway. And then I’m bored.

I guess it depends more on the friends. Men can be terrifically high maintenance and needy, and full of drama. They just refuse to admit to it. I have some terrifically straight talking female friends and some are more indirect.