To think female groups are hard work

[Peckhaminn]

I've found I perform much better one on one than in girl groups. All my life I've got along with men and find their banter much more enlightening and humorous than female banter.

I don't seem to stick well I'm girl groups, often the one push out or the one that's too 'open'. I just find men much easier than women and I was wondering if this is a common issue?

That's fine and I'd agree that generalisations are pointless and stupid for either sex. A few people have made personal attacks to op and others which is what demonstrates her point.

In other words, they're equally (if not more) rude and close-minded except they happen to have female friends instead of male.

If it’s true of groups of 3 women it’s likely to be true of groups of 3 men. Certainly I have noted it with primary school friendship triads both male and female - not in an “outcast” way (which would be extreme on a regular basis) but in a fluctuating thing or two playing together and a third doing something else with others, then a different pair forms and the other one does something with someone else. More healthy interaction with others dynamic than a constant falling out and exclusion thing

Amazing how pissy people can get on a thread generalising about women, but on on the recent “AIBU to think that men are awful” thread you got 30 odd pages of “hell yeah’s” and 59% agreeing.

Someone even said a couple of pages ago “imagine if the sexes were reversed, there would be uproar” 😂

er…no, there wasn’t uproar at all!

That's fine and I'd agree that generalisations are pointless and stupid for either sex. A few people have made personal attacks to op and others which is what demonstrates her point.

In other words, they're equally (if not more) rude and close-minded except they happen to have female friends instead of male.
I don't think they're being closed minded at all.

I think the issue is that any rhetoric that boils down to "other women are (insert stupid, negative, sexist generalisations here), but not me because I'm not like the other girls" is going to get challenged. It's a damaging and sexist argument, and society doesn't need more women doing a pick me I'm a cool girl dance whilst slinging other women under a bus.

99% of the I'm not like other women arguments boil down to:

• I have some interests and they don't align with silly sexist stereotypes (like most women)
• I have a personality and get on with a range of people, and find other social situations not my cup of tea (like most women)
• Men are so much (insert oversimplistic positive generalisation here) than women
• Women are so (insert silly negative sexist generalisations here)

It boils down to either bog standard misogyny, or a desire to be seen as unique and special.

It depends on the men (or the women) but in general I think men seem less up front about personal stuff. We had long term friends visit from abroad. We hadn't seen them for several years and I wanted to catch up, sodnt ages with her going over life while OH behaved as if he'd seen them the day before and just took his friend to the pub. When I asked OH why he wasn't interested he said he was but didn't want to pry and his friend would tell him anything he needed to say when he was ready.

We have more male than female friends and when in mainly male company conversation tends to be about general things 'putting the world to rights'. When I get together with mainly the wives it tends to be more focused on everyone's lives.

I don't agree with generalisations about entire groups of people, but there IS something in it.

I remember a huge drama between all the girls at school with one person forming a clique and people being included/excluded from it at random, told who they could and couldn't be friends with, and lots of general nastiness. We were about nine. The teacher got sick of it one day and got all the girls together and said, look there's only one way to put this - you're all a bunch of bitches.

There wasn't a single boy involved in that. It was literally all the girls vying to be top dog.

I've seen that behaviour replicated in some adult women too. I have loads of female friends myself, but there is a type I've learnt to stay away from. It's definitely not a pick me sis scenario. It's genuine experience that makes me avoid that type of person.

Obviously men are problematic in their own way, but they don't tend to go through cycles of making people pariahs.

I love my female and male friends

I've always got on better with men right from high school age. I don't like groups of women & have bever felt comfortable in those groups . Is much rather work with men too

No, there have been a few, a minority, who seem to be dead set on proving op right. @LolaSmiles who come across as the mean girl stereotype and resort to personal attacks. There is nothing wrong with telling op she is incorrect. Doing the same thing back (including to other posters, not just op) as a very small number have done, is just as bad

A teacher told a group of 9 year old girls they were bitches? That is fucking dreadful @LadyOfTheFliessssss !

What an incredibly bizzare thread.

I know. When I came across it last night, I said to myself "Am I actually on Mumsnet?"

If you don't think there's sufficient uproar about generalisations about men, how about YOU jump on the thread in question and formulate a decent counter argument? I'd have thought that men were perfectly capable of defending themselves (assuming the point were defensible) without the expectation that women would protect them.

LadyOfTheFliessssss

Girls vying to be top dog comes out of pick me sort of culture. I wish I noticed it sooner because the socialisation starts young and some girls are more prone to it than others. Most grow out of it though.

One thing I noticed is that the quality of female friendships has increased the older I've got, and I started concluding that once you're established in adulthood, secure in yourself and happy with your interests, nothing is gained by drama or trying to make out you're cooler than the other girls. I look back on certain friendships when I was younger and the misogyny running through some of the dynamics is obvious with the benefit of hindsight.

There's a type of person I tend to stay away from too. People who seem to have an endless run of interpersonal conflicts because there's a common denominator if someone has endless conflicts. I also can't be bothered with people who want to make sure other people perceive them as unique, be it through the stories they tell about themselves or a desire to be seen as not like the other girls/not like everyone else in (insert diverse group here).

It’s also really depressing to me to hear young children blamed for the product of socialisation - girls are raised from birth to be ladylike and kind to one another and therefore tend to compete with each other in an underhand way. Boys are encouraged to express their feelings and resolve conflicts “man to man”. Shockingly this results in clique behaviour in girls and assertive behaviour in boys.

Some people on this thread are acting like it’s down to DNA!

Yeah, he did. It was quite shocking at the time, but it did put an end to it.

Something needed to be done. It was a genuinely horrible environment. And he was right - it was pure bitchiness.

@LadyOfTheFliessssss

A male teacher called a group of young girls bitches?

Thats fucking awful. Hope he was sacked

It's absolute nonsense to say that boys don't socially exclude other boys or form cliques or bully

Why on earth would you believe that to be true?

Again a poster demonstrating the easily offended attitude that demonstrates OP’s point. How dare OP criticise women, and how dare that teacher criticise girls, no matter how badly they were behaving.

Yep. It’s like the thread police on here demanding a conversation between consenting adults is immediately shut down because they find it ‘uncomfortable’. Who do they think they are? Because we’re women we have to sugar coat our opinions and only discuss topics that don’t ‘offend’ people? They’re the worst misogynists out there tbh…

Teachers aren’t supposed to swear at/call students derogatory names and if you do t k ow that I worry for you.

No, he wasn't sacked. He put a stop to a huge amount of bullying. I'm not sure why you're focused on him needing to be sacked and ignoring the fact that he shouldn't have needed to say anything like that in the first place. I'm glad he did say it. It certainly made my life a lot more pleasant afterwards.

It's not nonsense to say what the facts of the situation were. It was only the girls who were involved in it. I'm sorry if that doesn't suit your narrative, but it's the truth.

Of course it isn't a straight division between the sexes as to who is bitchy and who isn't. But it does tend to be women who act like that or take it to those extremes.

What a lot of rubbish. Some men very definitely play these bitchy games - a dominant male spots a beta dog who is too keen to please and who doesn’t understand when he is being manipulated and made to look a fool for everyone else in the group to laugh at, and who stupidly keeps trying too hard when it is obvious he will never be allowed to fit in or be accepted. Nasty people play to their strengths - brawn if that is all they have, but if highly intelligent, more often social manipulation, as you can’t cause harm and get away scot free yourself if you are silly enough to throw a punch yourself - you have to wind the victim up so that they are the one who does that and you can play the victim.

The problem here is the gendering of behaviours. Toxic behaviours from both sexes generally relate to power play and it is ludicrous to pretend men do not engage in that, or that men only ever fight things out physically. I mean, ffs, what do people think “gaslighting” is? Men can be incredibly evil social manipulators when they feel like it, or when brute force isn’t their best option.

@Nooyoiknooyoik Nobody on this thread has suggested that women can’t be criticised. What’s not OK is suggesting that all women behave in a certain way because they’re women. It’s fine to say “clique behaviour is awful and I hate it when women do it”. What’s not fine is “I don’t like women because they’re so clique-y”.

I shouldn’t even need to explain why an adult in a position of authority shouldn’t be using a misogynistic term to describe a group of 9 year old children. That’s not “criticism”, FGS.

Yeah, that's why I said it's not a straight divide. I agree with you that men can behave badly.

But that doesn't mean that it's not more likely for a certain type of behaviour to come from a woman. I've never had a man say to me I am not allowed to be friends with someone else, whereas I still know of adult women now who will fall out with someone and then try to have that person ostracized from the group.

I can't help what my observations are. I can't pretend to have seen something I haven't and I can't pretend to have not seen what I have.

One group of girls bullied someone at school therefore all women are awful, bitchy and have no banter.

What the fuck an I reading.
No wonder some of you seem to struggle so much with friendships.

@Nooyoiknooyoik

Im not offended.

It is awful that a make teacher thought it was appropriate to use a sexist slur towards young girls.

You can disagree with something without being offended by it.

Im not sure what behaviour you think I'm displaying that demonstrates the ops point?

I don't think women are above criticism. However I don't think a teacher swearing at children is an appropriate response to perceived bad behaviour

Am I allowed to share my opinion? If not why not?