To ask if there are others who are ’leave behind’ people?

[IsThereAnEchoInHere]

So, at this point most people I know are coupled up, about to be or already married, many have kids etc, the ’life plan’ and all that…

And that’s cool, it’s not that.

It’s just that it’s getting clear that my stuff doesn’t matter at all anymore, often ignored and just made to feel less than.
Hope that makes sense.

Quite a lot of these people have turned out to be pretty selfish (yes, I realize the irony with my post) and really have turned into kind of different people from who they were.
They used to be open-minded and excepting of all kinds of people/lifestyles and some have turned into quite conventional and judgy.
Keeping score who’s in relationships, complaining about people who don’t have kids, married people are real adults, stupid meaningless things like this.

And the only time anyone makes first contact (I still try - usually they are busy, are okey to meet after months, turn all conversations into themselves) seems to be when they have something going wrong in their lives and need a vent or help, or wants me to come carrying gifts for their kids or just talk at me about themselves.

What the hell happened?
Is this life as an adult, or did I just have crap luck or something?

So I guess I've designed my life to have it full of non judgemental twats who understand that peoples' worth is not dependent on their marital or reproductive status.

There are a lot of people on both sides of this situation who superficially "judge"... but actually judge is not quite the right word because it's not a deliberate moral judgement. It's people acting out their insecurities on people who are different from them.

The people the OP talks about who behave better towards women who are married with children are subconsciously threatened by the idea that women are not completely fulfilled by motherhood and take that as a veiled criticism of their lifestyle. It's tiresome and draining and the key is to get as far as possible from these people and this mindset as it's very hard to have true independence of thought in this world and difficult not to be pushed out and alienated by people who think the sum total of a woman's value is in her husband and children. Which is why, presumably, many bright and ambitious women leave these closed and regressive communities as fast as they can and move to bigger cities.

On the flip side though there are certainly women who either can't or don't want to have children who become very dismissive of those who do and can behave in quite toxic ways. The reasons for this are complex and I don't think it's always as simple as saying its about jealousy, it's more about a general feeling of alienation and inability to be heard above the noise of people talking about children.

It's sad that so many women find themselves caught in this divide but the good news is it typically fades out when women get past childbearing age. The kinds of things which preoccupy a new mother are irrelevant to a woman in her mid 50s whose kids have flown the nest. If you can hold your nerve and hold onto your sense of self through all this many of your friends will still be around when they emerge from the other side of young parenthood.

As shown by some even here, you either have kids or lead the exciting hollywood lifestyle of childfree or you are simply not doing it right🤷🏻

I know what you mean about the comments about selfishness. Actually, it's the other way around. People have kids because they want them and don't often care about anything else. It's only when it can be used as a whip on us unnatural women without kids when it becomes higher calling, future tax payers and so on.
No. You wanted kids because you wanted them. Like if I claim that I bought chocolate I wanted to save others from future health issues🙄
Childfree people generally put way more thinking into whether to have or not have kids than most people who have kids.
It's fine to say "i wanted kids" as is "i didn't want kids". It's just the insults around which are ridiculous.
My fave is "who will take care of you when you are old???"
"So did you have kid just so you have a carer?"
"Erm no but like who will take care of you?"
🙄

And yes, being left behind is a thing but maybe it's more being on parallel but different road rather than behind?

@Applesandcarrots

Agree. I do think the argument that not having children is “selfish” is hilariously self serving and stupid.

Having children is probably the most selfish thing most people do. That’s not to say it’s wrong but wanting to perpetuate your genes is definitely not a public service.

Of course having kids is deeply selfish. Surely we can all agree on that, given the state of the world.

@Lentilweaver

You would be surprised… I had my DD at 39 and was single for most of my 20s and 30s and was routinely told I was too “selfish” to settle down.

Whenever I tried to unpick this it came down to being “independent”. I never quite figured out the mental gymnastics of why it’s selfish to be self financed and not dependent on a man for money but selfless to attach yourself to one at the earliest opportunity and have several children all of whom said man needs to finance.

But there you go. The mindless bigotry is strong.

Goodness, there is nothing more ‘ploddy’ than life with young kids.

There is more than one way to live a life.

I can’t imagine judging single and child free people. I rarely talk about my kids unless someone asks. There is more to me than that.

I got married, had kids etc at the ‘right’ age etc. Sometimes I feel a bit embarrassed at how ‘conventional’ my path has been.

I think you are right that it is human to want validation for our life choices, whether we are childfree or parents. But we should all probably try to rise above that. I find the endless social media videos by parents bigging up their lives and the childfree bigging up their lives both equally tedious.

There is so much else to discuss in the world, apart from "adulting" and children! It's sad that women are still defined by this. I am meeting my oldest and childfree friend next week, and we will be discussing her job, my job, a recent trip I took, a trip she is going to take, a play I saw, food we enjoy, books we are reading, current politics, looking after our aging mothers, the menopause... and so on. Not children.

I've ceased contact with one of my 40 something child free and single friends because I found that they became very insular, judgemental and lacked a sense of empathy. This developed over time and they seemed to get very bitter. They also had strong views on how parents should parent their children, which began to get on my nerves. It just lacked nuance and any empathy.

I like a diverse friendship group, and enjoy talking about a variety of subjects. I don't spend my life talking about kids. In my experience the issue has come from those who perhaps feel their lived have not evolved and they get quite bitter and nasty about it, although they would never admit it.

@FurCoatNoNickers

I have a friend who is very much like this. There are few things more irritating than someone who doesn’t have their own children being very dogmatic and judgemental about the way other people parent theirs.

And some people have friends who are bitter who also have children 😂
It always makes me laugh when parents make those sort of comments about a childfree person.
It also makes me laugh when childfree people assume parents are jealous of them

Basically, some people are twats.
Some of those twats have children, some don't 🤷🏻‍♀️

Oh and having been the product of very poor parenting - which I only realised the extent of when I was doing safeguarding training as a teacher - too damn right I will judge.

For some reason your post reminded me of an evening long ago with a friend I had known from childhood. I moved away aged 10 but we kept in touch by snail mail and started seeing each other again in our 30s when we lived near each other.

I was going through infertility treatment at the time and wanted to talk about that. She wanted to talk about her flat mate and how much she didn't fancy him (obviously did). There was no connection and I felt annoyed by her childish insistence on discussing this guy.

I literally never heard from her again after that. And didn't have an address for her since the last I had was her father's, who had died. I assume she was as irritated by our meeting as I was. Though I also wondered later if she had died as it seemed odd to have never made any contact after so many years. Still dont know.

Anyway.....people's interests change when their life changes. They naturally prefer to chat about common interests. I wouldn't give up if they are good friends though but try to meet them away from their partners / kids, so you get a more adult oriented conversation. Or suck it up and hang out with them and their kids- kids get older, no one talks about their wedding for years afterwards etc.

"Having children is probably the most selfish thing most people do. That’s not to say it’s wrong but wanting to perpetuate your genes is definitely not a public service."

I don't entirely disagree, but if we want the human race to continue quite a lot of people do need to keep doing this.

Of course. But arguing that people who choose not to have children do so out of selfishness is a ludicrous argument.

No one is having kids to keep our kind going. They have them because they want them 😉

I don't entirely disagree, but if we want the human race to continue quite a lot of people do need to keep doing this.

I just love all the parents out there who had their children for the sake of society and not because they felt broody, had a shag and ended up up the duff 😂

I know! so tired of that mentality.

And considering the pace at which humans are killing off other species and burning the planet, DO we want our species to continue? Perhaps we've had our moment and it would be better to fizzle out before all is lost.

I didn't feel I was the centre of the universe and I certainly didn't dominate the whole conversation. It was just that evening where we couldn't seem to find common ground where we had in the past. I didn't know then it would be our last meeting and was sad for a long time about losing contact.

The point of the story was to say that at different times in our lives we feel less connected to friends when we are at different stages. And it was memorable only because we lost contact afterwards - maybe related to our conversation, maybe not.

I never said people who choose not to have children do so out of selfishness or that people who do are selfless?? Of course people choose what they think they want for their lives - it's not selfish, selfless or otherwise.

It was an ironic / jokey comment.

Whatever. I think we both had negative feelings about each other. I don't feel superior. It may or may not have been the reason for never seeing each other again - you don't know either of us. And I don't care about your opinion frankly.

@IsThereAnEchoInHere it may well could be, but she suggests going for dinner dates... I think they're quite conversation-heavy normally. So the silence is LOUD in that setting. Different if she enjoyed hiking, seeing films etc, but she doesn't like the cinema or outdoor activities either 🥲 wish she did, would be a conversation starter at least lol.

I think the wording of this is insensitive but I do agree with you to an extent.

I didn't meet my partner till later in life and was an older FT parent.

My twenties were pretty wild, fun and exciting. I also built up gread professional experience. In my thirties I was very open about the fact I wanted to find a partner and I was very active on the dating scene but I simultaneously felt grateful for my freedom and used it to my best advantage.

I think it's really important to appreciate what we have in the moment even if we have different plans or intentions for the future.