Scottish teachers pay offer

[GneissGuysFinishLast]

AIBU to think that it’s not really an improved offer, and that 12% over 2 years is overall a worse deal than 10% in one year, and that they are only making this offer to delay strikes?

(reported on BBC News here: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64642699)

@Botw1 i only learned this recently but full time teachers get 40 days paid holiday (this is decent compared to some professions) however this means there are 5-6 weeks a year they do not get paid for, let’s equate that to the summer holidays. Basically they don’t get paid for the summer, can’t take on another job (some can but I’m led to believe it’s quite a rigmarole of paperwork), can’t take ‘holidays’ any other time of year therefore have to pay extortionate prices, plus they have to fight for inflation matching wage rises (without discussing all the other issues they face).

@FamilyLife2point4

Either they are paid for the holidays or they are overpaid

Loads of jobs have set holidays and most parents certainly do

So yeah I don't have much sympathy on that front.

Most jobs are having to fight for pay rises right now.

Most public sector roles are facing massive funding issues along with lots of other problems

GCSE’s don’t exist in scotland. To be a primary teacher in Scotland you need a primary teaching degree, or a degree plus a postgraduate degree.

English teachers need an undergraduate English degree. I picked that because it’s a subject taught in every school. Broadly, entry requirements are the same for other subjects - if you would like to choose a subject I can check that one for you?

I know the entry requirements for nursing as I looked them up for my sister a few days ago. I can provide you links to the course if you like?

Nobody is saying nurses don’t work hard, anywhere. They do. But the educational requirements are lower than teaching.

@GneissGuysFinishLast

Google tells me in Scotland you need an English or maths higher plus 1or 2 other subjects at higher level. Its hardly a PhD equivalent

Nursing is a degree educated role, like teaching.

It's laughable to suggest teachers should be paid more because of slight differences in course entrance requirements.

@Botw1 i don’t agree they are overpaid, they just have stronger unions than the other public sector professions and have therefore gained more from that (rightly so).

The public funding cuts are not the fault of teachers and the children shouldn’t suffer as a result (less resources / bigger class sizes / burnt out over-stretched teachers - benefits no-one).

If you want to point the blame, let’s point it where it belongs - at Westminster - maybe if they stopped taking 55p from every £1 generated in Scotland, or stopped expecting Scotland to pay for things like HS2 that don’t even benefit the country, maybe then the Scottish govt could afford to properly pay its public sector workers amongst other things …

@FamilyLife2point4

I never said that funding cuts were the fault of teachers?

Just that none of this is unique to them.

I do blame the govt.

And no, they're not over paid but they cant have it both ways

Either they're not paid holidays, in which case they're paid 30k (random figure) for 39 weeks a year, in which case the hourly rate is massive or they are paid holidays, making the hourly rate low but meaning they should be working the hols

@Botw1 i believe the point @GneissGuysFinishLast was making was nursing is a 3 year degree course, Batchelor level - whereas teaching requires a 4 year Batchelor with honours in the secondary subject plus a postgraduate year, teaching degree, on top. Primary can be done as a 4 year as an honours degree (if I remember correctly).

The point being (I believe) that a 4/5 year university level degree graduate should be paid more than a 3 year degree graduate?

I actually think work to rule would be far more disruptive to exam years. Especially since it looks like it’s been recommended that we don’t do SQA marking in this instance. Eeek! I hope it doesn’t come to that.

I honestly think they are hoping that teachers will “give in” simply because they know the majority of us don’t want that to happen. And we don’t. I don’t know what I’d do. Partially because I was banking on my SQA money to claw back some of what I’ve lost through strikes.

It’s scary.

You need 4 Highers, not 2 or 3. And it’s Maths and English, not one or the other.

@FamilyLife2point4

Yes I got the point.

I don't agree that course requirements alone should dictate pay.

The actual requirements of the role are also relevant.

Imo nursing (obvious bias) is more skilled than teaching so should at the very least be on par.

Teachers thinking theyre special doesn't really help the cause tbh

@VioletMountainHare

Ok, thanks.

Point stands

@Botw1 they are paid for working 195 days plus 40 days holiday = 235 days per year full time. Average teacher salary is standard around 42k = £172.78 per day.
Heres where the debate comes in - teachers are paid for a 35 hour week (or 7 hours per day) making their hourly rate £25.53 - most teachers will tell you they work at least 10 hours per day otherwise there’s no time to prep / mark etc therefore it’s realty is £17.87 per hour.
Deductions of 10% pension, student loans, and getting pushed into the 40% tax bracket means their pay rise won’t be much of a rise either (heavily taxed). Doesn’t make it an appealing graduate profession without the stuff they have to put up with (thinking of recent news articles with students with knives etc)

“ Teachers thinking theyre special doesn't really help the cause tbh “ @Botw1

I think you hit the nail on the head here.

Exactly, thank you. If we are comparing pay scales, we need to use comparable jobs.

From my understanding, a teacher is more similarly qualified to a health visitor with a PGDip? Health visitors pay is similar to that of a teacher, so it seems their pay is actually quite similar when we adjust for qualification level?

@Botw1 agree in role relevance - police
/ fire risk their lives, nurses save lives, social workers too - they should all be paid a fair wage (Westminster’s fault) the only reason teachers have faired better than the others is their unions are stronger (although the EIS are doing them a massive disservice accepting these crap rises over years)

@FamilyLife2point4

Seems to be popular in Scotland?

I think as I said that teachers pay should remain competitive

But only as long as other public sector roles do the same. Especially as other roles don't have the option of working holidays or not.

@GneissGuysFinishLast yes - same as a social worker can further qualify as a mental health officer MHO, and the pay is comparable there too to a teacher.

I can’t speak for all teachers but I personally don’t think that being a teacher makes me more special than someone who is a nurse. Both roles require specialist skill sets. Just because you perceive nursing to be more skilled than teaching doesn’t mean it is. The two jobs require very different skills that aren’t easily comparable.

Hv aren't on 25 quid an hour either

Plus I don't think hv are as skilled as your average ward based nurse so again that shows ignorance of the role in favour of course requirements.

Which is odd

What about nursing is more skilled than teaching? Do you know what goes into a days work as a teacher? I don’t know the specifics of a day nursing beyond my experience as a patient.

You are saying repeatedly that teachers think they are special and so on, yet continually speak about nurses pay on a post about teachers pay?

It doesn’t have to be one or the other - I’ve already said that nurses deserve more pay too.

I also believe that, like in teaching, the nurses pay and conditions issues are different here in Scotland than in England.

Yup vast majority of nursing staff got 6% only those on band 2-5 which equate to £21/25 k for more which is absolutely fair and right.
Im all out of support for teachers and lecturers. When there is comparison conditions such as annual leave / paid hours days call it what you want, as we all know teachers get on their high horses about not actually getting paid for their leave as with other public sector workers then maybe just maybe they would gain more public sympathy.
Always amazes me the amount of teachers who are very unhappy in their roles and yet stay? Why is that? I have changed jobs many times when I’ve been unhappy.

@Botw1 the argument there would be - folk entered the police / paramedics etc knowing they would need to work holidays / do night shifts etc - just as teachers should know some children can be v.challenging and holidays out of term are extortionate.

you can’t be bitter if that’s what you signed up for. The pay however - that’s squarely Westminsters fault. Scotland does needs rid of that drain.

nationalcareers.service.gov.uk/job-profiles/health-visitor

According to this, health visitors pay scale goes from £33,706 to £47,672 for 38-40h/week.
Teaching goes from £28,113 to £42,336 for 35h/week.
This means that health visitors wage ranges from £16.20/hour to £25.18/hour.
Teaching ranges from £15.44/hour to £23.26/hour.

Is this accurate?

I thought you said you got paid £25 per hour?

I think people perceive teaching as just standing in front of a class delivering information, then ticking some work if it’s correct. Not understanding the actual pedagogy behind the lessons.