Scottish teachers pay offer

[GneissGuysFinishLast]

AIBU to think that it’s not really an improved offer, and that 12% over 2 years is overall a worse deal than 10% in one year, and that they are only making this offer to delay strikes?

(reported on BBC News here: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64642699)

@FamilyLife2point4

No. You said teachers get abuse and that's not comparable to any other role.

It's there in black and white so the backtrack is a bit odd but anyway leave it there

I support the strikes. I have no gripes about childcare or otherwise

@MistressIggi

Maybe. But the defence is cleverest/hardest worked/worst off

No, it isn't. But you've got your mind made up haven't you.

@MistressIggi

There's examples on this thread

Ive had actual conversation where unbidden teachers have said (in a discussion about pay/strikes) but only teachers have to deal with xyz

They seemed a bit surprised when it was pointed out that in fact they weren't the only ones dealing with xyz

@Botw1 no I gave an example of a teachers role which isn’t comparable to any other professional role - then gave an alternative comparison for police.
You are trying to twist it and pick at something. It’s coming across as sad.

*The reports in the news of teachers being verbally and physically assaulted with little consequences for the wee souls that do it - I believe it - no-one deserves to go to their work scared of what they’ll face and forced to stay in it. Do I also believe it’s far more widespread than reported, yes, yes I do - kids talk.

is this comparable to any other profession - no it’s not, so why are comparisons even raised in the first place?*

@FamilyLife2point4 What you actually said. You have the example of teachers being verbally and physically assaulted. You said no one should go to work scared of what they’ll face and forced to stay in it. You said it wasn’t comparable to any other profession.

There are many professions who are verbally and physically assaulted at work. People who then need to provide care and support to those people, people who fear what is behind the next door they knock. It’s not remotely unique to teaching, and many are paid considerably less than teachers for the privilege.

It shouldn’t be that way but when you work with very vulnerable people, it goes with the job to some degree. I’m glad to see you backtracking, but don’t pretend you didn’t say it.

Just got an email confirming another 2 days of strikes / school closures

@FamilyLife2point4 The real gripe seems to be that teachers striking has a bigger impact on society than, for instance, nurses striking (unless you’re unfortunate enough to be I’ll / ilk relative / waiting an op etc) but for most healthy people, it’s probably not impacted them much

What..? It might cause more of a inconvenience on a day to day basis but missing a few days of school does not cause a bigger impact on society than lack of healthcare. The knock on effect on waiting lists is huge and that's just elective procedures. Nurses aren't even allowed to fully strike, some service will be maintained to keep patients safe and cover emergencies. Jesus. Another example of a teacher with an overly-inflated sense of self-importance.

@KimmySchmitt

Was just thinking that

Can you imagine if hospitals followed schools and just closed when nurses strike as they cant promise safe staffing levels?!

schools can shut completely, hospitals never will but it's definitely teachers striking that will have the biggest impact.

Couldnt make it up

If hospitals had to shut every thing me they couldn't guarantee safe staffing levels they'd never be open

@FamilyLife2point4 The real gripe seems to be that teachers striking has a bigger impact on society than, for instance, nurses striking (unless you’re unfortunate enough to be I’ll / ilk relative / waiting an op etc) but for most healthy people, it’s probably not impacted them much

On a day to day basis yes it’s a pain having to take time out of my working week to accommodate school closures but in the longer term striking nurses have a much bigger impact on my child accessing the medical care she needs, it’s not a nil sum game.

@Jellycatspyjamas - you’ve linked 2 paragraphs- 1 giving a role description, 1 detailing they shouldn’t be compared.

clutching at straws much?

@KimmySchmitt as I said, most healthy people don’t notice. It’s not impacted any of my friends / family, but have read news stories of others it has. I’m not denying it’s wider impact.
as @Botw1 has just posted, more school strikes, are impacting lots of folk, every couple of weeks just now.

im confused at why other professions are grumping when teachers support them - I’m thinking it’s the inconvenience (or jealousy that teachers have better unions)

@Botw1 but hospitals don’t shut completely- so your making a pointless comparison (again).

@FamilyLife2point4

Still denying the blatantly obvious?

Of course hospitals don't shut. That was the point lol

And other professions aren't grumping at teachers or jealous (nurses are also striking in case you haven't noticed)

Pointing out that teachers aren't the only ones facing xyz isn't grumping

@Botw1 You can't argue with stupid, I've given up. Agree with you btw

@FamilyLife2point4 I’m not clutching at straws at all - plain reading of what you wrote suggests no one else faces aggression in their work. You may be trying to back track on that now, but you wrote what you wrote.

@Botw1 blatantly obvious what?
this post was about a pay deal - you’ve turned it into ‘but what about nurses’ then stating it’s actually about ‘teachers facing xyz’ or moaning about it - but agree they aren’t comparable roles…..therefore what a teacher faces / does is completely different to a nurse, or a police officer - you’ve finally seemed to grasp that point.
Therefore each profession is allowed to have it grumps, they each have there own challenges & rewards - others shouldn’t be turning into a ‘but what about us competition’ or ‘but the holidays they get’ or let’s clutch at straws over semantics when a poster has explained their intent several times. It comes across sad.

You either support teachers or you don’t.
if you want their salary / holidays - go do their job - if not, stop moaning about it! Get behind their campaign, or jog on…

To all the teachers out there - I salute you, stand strong!

@FamilyLife2point4

The herald have reported teachers in Scotland are the highest paid in UK next to London I believe they have a healthy salary and absolutely don’t support then it was a more than fair offer their union turned down

@Janeay i have also said I thought it was a fair offer (in the current political climate) however it’s still a real term pay cut of ~10% over 2 years (due to inflation - see my PP) and I can’t say I’d personally be happy at that, if it was me.
The reason Scottish teachers are appropriately remunerated is because their unions have fought simply to match inflation, and if you look at NASUWT they would actually be paid closer to ~100k if they had matched inflation over the past 10 years. For over 10 years EIS have accepted below inflation rises, spread out over years.

This has made me think - why doesn’t Westminster automatically give every public service a wage rise based on inflation…. we know why. Hence unions have had to demand it.
Others weren’t as appropriately remunerated whist govt increased min wage, causing this gulf.

I personally wish I’d gone to be a train driver - their unions are even better and matched inflation so they get over 50k to drive around the country (sounds nice).

Yeah dream on I don’t agree fair offer is fair in the current financial climate and think the reason the teachers have a strong union and are well paid is to do with the McCrone report in 2000

@Janeay my understanding is the McCrone agreement was drawn up because Westminster take 55p for every £1 generated in Scotland - if they gave it all back, they would be able to fund public services far better again (free prescriptions, no car park charges at hospitals, no bedroom tax, minimal uni fees, no fracking, smaller class sizes, 97% renewable for electricity- and that’s just off the top of my head).
the real problem is Westminster squander the public purse - point the finger where it’s due.
All public services deserve better and the money ‘is there’ - believe MPs are just about to give themselves yet another pay rise (MSPs haven’t taken the rises since 2008 - giving 20% of their salary back to the public purse - including the FM)

Every child at school in Scotland benefits from the McCrone agreement. Let’s not make the McCrone agreement a negative thing.

Teachers in Scotland are better paid because of the Scottish government, nothing to do with teachers in England. Scotland has a completely different school system, in terms of our state schools being non selective and the lower use of private education. Also, the CfE puts more pressure on Scottish teachers to design and plan courses than many other curriculums - pressure which didn’t exist in the 1990s/2000s when the McCrone agreement was written up and we had a 5-14 national curriculum. The language in the experiences and outcomes is frighteningly vague and since it’s introduction teachers have been forced to interpret vague standards themselves - often these actively make effective differentiation impossible because they are not progressive. We also went into the national model blind with very little guidance about what would actually be assessed and how it would be assessed.

I don’t work in England so I’m not sure how this directly compares to the English model; I do know teachers who qualify in Scotland can generally teach in England but it’s quite difficult to become a teacher in Scotland if you don’t train here.