Scottish teachers pay offer

[GneissGuysFinishLast]

AIBU to think that it’s not really an improved offer, and that 12% over 2 years is overall a worse deal than 10% in one year, and that they are only making this offer to delay strikes?

(reported on BBC News here: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64642699)

For clarity, the £16 isn’t my actual hourly rate - that’s how much I earn when you take into account the hours I actually work. I think my hourly pay, on paper, is something like £25? - just incase someone claims the maths doesn’t work out - it doesn’t work out - that’s the issue!

I don’t predominantly teach geography, no. I just love a pun. And music.

@GneissGuysFinishLast

No. Its a pay dispute.

Striking for pay won't fix the NHS

It might help retention and recruitment of staff. But not for 7%

The govt would be better off sortu g out teaching contracts and working hours so they don't constantly feel so hard done by

The striking is all about pay, there is no discussions being had about other aspects of teaching

In comparison to most other public sector roles, teaching is fairly well paid if you go by contract.

Working extra hours can't be enforced. So technically you can earn 25 quid an hour. That's a good wage

You'd have to be senior management to earn that in other roles

If you think £16/hr (actually £25) is fair for someone with the level of education and training needed to be a teacher...

Actually, I think that is pretty fair, particularly when you factor in long holidays and a pretty good pension scheme.

The strikes in England are for different issues than the strikes here in Scotland - education is devolved. Here is a link to the reasons Scottish teachers are striking:

www.eis.org.uk/pay-attention/why

I fully agree that other sectors should also have fair pay rises, but unfortunately I can’t strike for them. The position the support staff were put in was unfair!

Are you comparing teaching to other jobs where you need to be qualified to postgraduate level?

The figures I have quoted are for teachers with minimum of 6 years experience, too. A newly qualified teacher is paid just £15/hour based on contracted hours, which is probably more like £10/hour when you consider the fact they probably work more hours than any other teacher!

from doing a search for “graduate” public sector jobs in Scotland, it seems teaching is on par in terms of pay. Here is the first one I found:

www.myjobscotland.gov.uk/councils/argyll-bute-council/jobs/planning-enforcement-officer-graduate-planning-enforcement-officer-316980

That one has a similar pay range, but without the requirement for a postgrad.

You are entitled to think that’s fair if you wish. I prefer not to comment on the pay and conditions of sectors I don’t work in, personally.

Nobody is saying teachers are poorly paid, for the record. We recognise that we do get a lot more than many other jobs. We recognise that people working in other sectors also deserve a pay rise. The vast majority of us love our jobs. However, we are a highly skilled, qualified profession. We want to continue to attract high quality graduates, to maintain the quality of teaching for children.

I was very reluctant to strike, to be honest. I felt so guilty. I posted this with the hope of anonymously discussing it with other teachers. I am still undecided if I think this is a fair offer.

Yes I was thinking about nursing.

To earn 25 quid an hour you'd need to be a band 8.

Which is very senior.

A band 5 is on about 13 to start, max 16.

I think 12% over 2 years is awful. Have the EIS accepted this? NASUWT & SSTA we’re pushing for 12% in one year - this is why you all need to switch unions - EIS has cost teachers real term pay cuts of appx 50K over ten years.
If the other unions had their way, the average teachers salary would have followed inflation and currently sit around 100k instead of 42k.
All theyve asked for is to match inflation - as min wage / living wage rose - public sector did not, causing this tremendous gulf & burden for all sectors (nhs, police, fire, teachers etc).
As the train unions are so strong, they have matched inflation and a train driver currently earns over 50k (rightly so but it’s disgusting other sectors have majority crap unions that have caved to crap rises that don’t match inflation).
Then there’s the Tory’s trying to make it illegal to strike - best advice, switch union and vote independent over Tory too!

I know teachers don't like to admit it but I do think the holidays have to be factored into the pay some how.

I know that most teachers work at least some of the holidays, but for 17 to 25 quid an hour they should be!

That being said I agree as skilled professionals in a tough job the pay needs to keep up to be competitive

5% or 12% over one year or two, it doesn't actually matter.... it's still more than I was offered as a public sector worker. Greed in my opinion.

I clear £1700 a month and work a 50+hr week, the wages really aren’t great, especially for new teachers. Yes people will say it “averages out” but realistically even after I’ve taken out unpaid holidays I’m on about £10 an hour.

let’s not even discuss the fact that the chances of me getting a job for the new year is practically zero so I definitely won’t be getting the apparent 15% jump in wages moving from a probationer to an official “first year” teacher 😍

@YerAWizardHarry

Why won't you get a job?

You are entitled to think that’s fair if you wish. I prefer not to comment on the pay and conditions of sectors I don’t work in, personally.

Fair enough, but I personally know lots of other graduate and post-graduate jobs where the pay is similar when starting out. Teachers in promoted positions are paid more, and the same happens in other sectors. My reference to the pension scheme is very valid too, as this is one of the (valuable) perks of public sector pay which is not always taken in to the equation. (I've worked in the public and private sectors and I know which sector is better by far in terms of pension provision.)

I'm not sure about the highly-skilled, qualified profession bit either. Yes, some teachers undoubtedly are but others aren't, as witnessed by the truly awful attainment gap stats and outcomes data for pupils in my particular part of Scotland. (I suppose this is the cue for mentions of the evils of the Curriculum for Excellence, but are we really saying that CfE is so bad that so many pupils are failing regardless of the ability of their teachers?)

I don't have problems in principle with paying teachers more, especially if it attracts higher calibre graduates, but I would like to see it mirrored in better outcomes for the children they are teaching.

There are no jobs. Zero. Zip. Nada. Unless you want to work on a remote island or in a tiny community in the Highlands.

We are given a job for our first year and then told to fend for ourselves. Hearing through the grapevine there are currently rumoured to be around 5 (fixed term!) posts for post-probation teachers in my local authority. There are 150+ probationers…

The above was to @Botw1

I’m also not even in the central belt where things and infinitely more shit job prospect wise.

Given the money staff are losing through strike days if it continues they'll not have a pay rise at all this financial year as strike days are unpaid. More and more as time goes on are not wanting to strike due to this.
Working to the standard contract hours/ work load should be on the table if the new pay deal is not agreed.

I worry for the children who are sitting exams after years of upheaval and now the uncertainty if the exams will be as normal as they can be this year.

So no recruitment or retention crisis then?

No teachers leaving over pay and conditions whose job you can have?

Nurses require a lower level of education than teachers though.

Nursing is a three year degree which requires BBBC to get in. To get in to an undergraduate English course, you need AAAA, which is a four year course, plus a postgraduate qualification.

Not saying that nurses shouldn’t be well paid, but the education level required to teach is higher, so you should probably be comparing a teacher to near the top of the nursing pay scale

I think nurses are underpaid.

I’d argue that the requirements are even lower than that… a girl I went to college with got into nursing through clearing with CC at Higher (and neither in something science related)

however you can become a teacher with “just” an undergraduate degree. There are 4 year primary education degrees at most of the big universities in Scotland.

Interesting. I was in SSTA for a while. Nothing has even been officially put on the table - I only heard through BBC news!

I don’t vote Tory.

Ah

What was it you said earlier?

I don't comment on the pay of jobs I don't do?

Maybe you should stick to that? Unless we've hit the teachers are better and harder worked than any other job portion. This is where you lose sympathy

The level of academic skill required in nursing is at worst equivalent to teaching and at best more advanced.

Google tells me you can be a primary school teacher with 5 gcses and 3 a levels

And I presume not all teachers need to get on an undergraduate English course?

I’m sure those people are also underpaid and under valued, and would wholeheartedly support them striking too.

The pension is good, but it unfortunately isn’t paying the bills right now - and I’ve actually had to opt out of the scheme for the time being (although I recognise that this is temporary given other issues in my life and not universal)

The attainment gap isn’t necessarily down to quality of teaching. The Scottish government has put a lot of money into redressing that (I’m not sure if you are in a SAC area or not?) but again, it isn’t necessarily about quality of teaching. Without knowing a bit more about your area I can’t really comment further.

Every teacher I know wants nothing more than their kids to do well. Well, maybe not all of them, if I’m honest - but certainly the majority.