15 minute cities and the conspirators

[ivykaty44]

15 minute cities being organised to mean that you don't have to rely on a car to get to everything and can easily walk to many places therefore only have to use the car for longer journeys

the conspiracy theories im seeing on social media are suggesting its a world wide control formula and we will be fined for moving from one district to another.

www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2023/02/08/15-minute-city-conspiracy-theories-insane-says-15-minute-city-creator/?sh=121378916156

I'm wondering if the car manufactures are behind the conspiracy, as they would have a lot to lose if people live in places where they don't need a car and can just ave one family car or hire a car. Billions of sales could be lost if this takes off.

Some cities have gone car free - theculturetrip.com/europe/spain/articles/the-car-free-spanish-city/ and found after much objection, that it works well - especially for the elderly

And a lot of those will be two person households with just one car

15 minutes walk on flat, even ground with good lighting is very different from 15 minutes uphill, on uneven ground with poor lighting. Are the planners taking this into account?

Ah right. So no ideas and no answers about the actual practicalities that will make this work, just gushing over your utopia.

PS - I don't drive. And while I admit to flab, it isn't at the stage where it's likely to drown me.

@MrsDanversGlidesAgain

I've posted numerous links to cities that have done it.

Your post suggested we give up.

Nope, I'm asking how this will work in practice. Where all the doctor and dentists and teachers and the like will come from. How it will be paid for. I mean, the Ghent example sounds very nice if you live in the centre and you're a tourist - then there's this bit.

The centre of the city is largely barred to vehicles, but suppliers, some health workers and elderly residents are allowed to drive. Outside of that, it is now impossible to drive directly between six surrounding suburbs: you have to go out to the ring road, round and back in, to your destination

So major inconvenience if you need to get from one suburb to another for work or any other reason and the traffic and pollution has just been displaced to somewhere else and people's journeys take longer.

And sorry, it's that allowed to drive that gripes me a bit - and I'm a non-driver. I'm sure it's made the centre of Ghent absolutely lovely; what's the day to day cost for people's lives?

Take the example of London. All along the banks of the Thames there is high rise development springing up and has been for years - thousands of flats. If there was ever a chance to establish from scratch these 15 minute cities where everything you want day to day is on hand it's there; and yet no developer appears to have seized that opportunity. Why not?

Some doctors, dentists and teachers cycle

I have visited York before, the centre is pedestrianised, inner city car parks expensive.
Most visitors use the park and ride, it’s convenient and cheap. I’m reliably told that locals also use the park and ride, because it’s convenient and cheap.

Locals have the choice though, and can come and go as they please, to wherever they want. York has good train and bus links, so many choose to use those.
What they don’t have is threats of fines if they choose to use a car.

I understand that if this works well it will be good for everyone, what I fail to understand, and no one has answered, is why go down this route of restrictions, permit applications and potential fines in the first place. When other cities have seemingly solved the issue of traffic jams with improved public transport and no restrictions, why are so many of you happy that this is the approach being taken in Oxford? It’s not about the improved infrastructure (which done by council planners isn’t guaranteed), it’s about the lack of freedom - which apparently some of you don’t understand.

We apparently have a shortage of doctors, no-one can get a dentist and reading MN teachers are leaving the profession in droves. Yet this plan will need doctors, dentists and teachers withing 15 minutes walk of everyone in the country (if I have that correct). Where are they all coming from? (in a numbers sense, not a 'oh they can cycle to work' sense).

@MrsDanversGlidesAgain

We need an election so we can start rebuilding after all these years of austerity, Brexit, corruption and Covid.

In the meantime, we can make it easier to walk or cycle or use public transport to those services we do have.

This change is going to take time but it will be worth it. It will require a functioning State to do it tho.

@MiaMoor

Cars already limit my freedom and that of our children, massively.

i would love to live in a city where it was impossible to be more than 15 minutes walk from
a waitrose or M&S simply food for luxury groceries
an aldi or lidl for the cheap stuff
a mid-range supermarket
an independent green grocer
an independent butcher
an independent fishmonger
a deli/cheesemonger
a bookshop
a variety of stores selling gifts, homewares and clothing
a choice of interesting cafe's and restaurants
a bike repair shop
a row of charity shops
a swimming pool
an affordable/cheap gym
a luxury gym/healthclub/spa
a large park with great children's play area

and that there was plenty of affordable and spacious housing of all types and sizes such that all the people working in or needing access to all those businesses could easily live nearby whatever their family circumstances

and that each 15 minute neighbourhood contains one each of every possible type of school so that no one needs to go to school more than 15 minutes walk from home (and likewise the above housing condition would mean that no teachers had to live in a different area to the school they work in)

obviously the area where the hospital is would be allowed to be a drive away as you can't have a hospital every 15 minutes of walk, but the hospital neighbourhood needs to contain all the affordable housing needed so that all the hospital staff can live within 15 minutes walk, as well as plenty of large luxury housing for the consultants.

as it is, I live in a rather cheap down--at-heel area near the centre of a medium-sized city. within 15 minutes walk I have a few of the things I need. A lot more of them are about a 40 minute walk away, in an area where housing costs are about double what they are in my road - I do that walk occasionally if I need exercise, or do it by bike, but then am limited to what I can carry back so if I need more than a rucksack full I go by car, which is a 5 minute drive but it would be 45 minutes if I had to go out to the ring road and back in. The city centre is likewise about 30 minutes walk in a different direction, and I go by bike if I don't need to bring much back, or drive if I will be buying lots. The nearest swimming pool is rather skanky and grim so I drive to a much posher part of the city to use a nicer one (there's no bus route from that part of the city to this, and the hill is too steep for me to cycle)

the thing is though that these nice areas which have all the nice things within an easy walk can only sustain their businesses because they have a customer catchment area that is a lot larger than their local 15 minute walk radius. I would love to have duplicates of all those things within 15 minutes of where I am but I do not think the businesses could possibly thrive with only the customers who live less than 15 minutes walk away, and I am 100% sure that most the employees of those businesses live in the cheaper areas further away.

and I am lucky - fit and healthy enough to cycle, and with a lot of good things not too far away. there are vast swathes of the city where the only businesses for 40 minutes walk in any direction would be are a row with a fish&chip shop, a betting shop, an offlicence, a barber/hairdresser and a "massage parlour" and there is no way that all the nice businesses that make for a pleasant place to be would be able to set up shop there and make a profit.

Oh right. That easy. And still no answer on the practicalities and why with all the development in London along the Thames the opportunity hasn't already been seized to implement these ideas and show how they can work.

Still, can't fault your optimism that all it takes is an election and a functioning state (whatever youe definition of that is). You missed out the billions needed, though, but I'm sure they'll come from 'taxing the wealthy' - isn't that usually the answer to the question of where the money's coming from?

I do not think the businesses could possibly thrive with only the customers who live less than 15 minutes walk away

There's another thing - if you have all this stuff within 15 minutes but so do all the other places you can go to, how many of those services are actually going to have the customer base to survive long term?

@MrsDanversGlidesAgain

Got a link to the London development? It's a big place

Developers aren't going to do it because it eats into their profit margin. Same reason as to why they won't do affordable unless forced.

Yet this plan will need doctors, dentists and teachers withing 15 minutes walk of everyone in the country (if I have that correct).

@MrsDanversGlidesAgain This is a plan for some cities, not everywhere

So major inconvenience if you need to get from one suburb to another for work or any other reason and the traffic and pollution has just been displaced to somewhere else and people's journeys take longer.

they leave the car on the drive & use a different mode of transport that isn’t inconvenient, doesn’t take as long as the trip in the car to the ring road & back in it’s reduced car trips across the city from 55% to 27% and although some car journeys are longer they weren’t congested - so you’d use less fuel and produce less pollution

the economy also took an upturn after fears of business being affected detrimentally that wasn’t the case but the opposite

Ghent

Electric scooters are a bloody menace. Both the official hire ones and private ones being ridden illegally on public roads.

Have you seen how much it costs to get a 20kg sack of concrete delivered? If you're not buying by the pallet load/in 1 Tonne bags then most suppliers aren't interested.

I could put one on my pannier rack but would have to be careful to avoid puncturing the plastic.

How many of them are specifically doing what Oxford is doing?

Most European cities still have decent tram networks. Every single one in the UK, with the sole exception of Blackpool got shut down. A few cities have built new ones but I was brought up in Bristol, a city which has a long history of talking about doing it, but never gets on and achieves anything.

I could put one on my pannier rack but would have to be careful to avoid puncturing the plastic.

probably easier to get a taxi

I doubt there will be a Wickes or Screwfix pop up in the 15 minute zones, they are usually on retail parks on the edge of town so no one will sell concrete anyway

We're in Oxford at the minute and there were demonstrations about this yesterday.

We went to DD's local Sainsbury's on the roundabout and it was awful. Very basic limited stock for emergencies only. Hope they up their game.

And little commitment to safe cycling. Even where bike networks have been installed they often don't have bollards or are used for parking and loading.

Also in most of the country parking is permitted on pavements. Cars and vans obstruct the path and council and police claim it's the responsibility of the other. Meanwhile pedestrians walk in the road.

Cyclicts and pedestrians remain at the bottom of the pecking order.

It will be like most things here, half a job.