Page 9 | To be horrified by these ‘baby boxes’?

TheObstinateHeadstrongGirl · 2023-02-11T09:55:00+00:00

This just came up on my newsfeed and I’m absolutely horrified by the whole concept of women abandoning their newborns in the US: https://www.newschannel10.com/2023/02/10/newborn-surrendered-baby-box-installed-less-than-3-months-ago/?fbclid=IwAR1qz7BbrIeF390b6YXl4mAscw82cTvt-Bzwnp_LMaZMMCjBcpltEZGHav0#ldzrvrvoa7ecauugx04 Im NOT having a go at these women, and this is supposedly to prevent newborns being abandoned in unsafe places. But surely the answer isn’t “Hey brand new mum with raging hormones, probably depression, who is tired, stressed and not thinking straight - put your baby here for a nice new family” - it should be about supporting mums with PND, improving practical support, healthcare and rights of new mothers and reproductive rights. Not just “Oh well you don’t feel OK today so probably best you don’t be a mum, here’s a little box to pop your baby in”. My spidey senses were tingling so when I did a bit of further research, the woman who started these is, of course, fiercely anti abortion. So that’s what it’s all about. it’s about not allowing women their reproductive rights but making them go through a birth they don’t want, have the trauma of having a baby they don’t want but it’s OK, and the heartache of giving them away - no harm done ey 😡

Bellalalala · 11/02/2023 18:44

TwistandSprout · 11/02/2023 18:30

Belllalalalal you probably find my argument bizarre because you are ascribing every comment I make relating to the boxes. I was talking about relinquishment in general to. To clarify, boxes are usually used for the babies of the most vulnerable girls and women. That may be the best that can be achieved but that is horrifying if a mother is left without medical care, without support or at the continued mercy of her abuser. I am not against them any more than I am against babies being left in any other safe space but it’s a failure for mother and baby because they should be able to access something safer and more supportive.

Additionally there is no theoretical wonder state where women are offered all the support in the world (although we do see that pretty minimal support removes almost all relinquishment of babies) but for women who want to relinquish and who engage then this should be a supported process - this is hard - there will be meetings and assessments and there is a six week ‘cooling off’ period. All that exists precisely to check these women actually want their babies adopted because actually the majority who start this process voluntarily end it because actually it was the circumstances not the baby they didn’t want. There is no barrier to a woman relinquishing her baby. I have never advocated forcing a woman to keep a baby she doesn’t want but the process is intrinsically hard because it’s a vulnerable group and it is usually a hard decision. This bigger group of women m, compared to the box users, often do benefit from support with issues like domestic violence, drug use, housing problems etc and they do not benefit from relinquishment being treated like the baby is the only product if value. The American system simplifies it to the detriment of birth mothers and the UK system has more respect for all parties. A harder process can be a more rigorous and supportive one.

You said support should be provided and then it made difficult to relinquish your baby. You said it should be made harder.

I am not just talking baby boxes.

I asked why, even if there’s lots of support available, it should be made difficult for a woman to relinquish her baby, if she does not want to raise it. I asked who that would help?

You then went off on all sorts of tangents to avoid answering those questions. You still haven’t answered the questions. I then addressed your further points.

A harder process, is infact, not supportive of women who do not want to raise their baby. A hard process will end up with babies being abandoned in an unsafe place or worse.

MissMaple82 · 11/02/2023 18:46

You're not fully understanding the concept of them and what they can prevent

Dalekjastninerels · 11/02/2023 18:53

greenspaces4peace · 11/02/2023 18:25

@Dalekjastninerels i agree no woman should be forced to keep an unwanted baby.
sadly the info is out there as to which babies are wanted for adoption, those with drug addiction and health conditions are not.

I understand this; but why should a woman least likely to give a child the best chance of life be forced to raise said child and have Mum not coping and neglecting the child at best and physically and emotionally abusing the child at worst

Also why should a tiny baby or small child pay the price and be seen as inferior because of their parents' crappy drug fuelled decisions.

My friend fosters two boys; their parents were in the first boy's case on drugs and neglectful; he is in contact, but that is all and in the second horribly abusive; so much so this boy never wants to see them again ever.

These boys have thrived with my friend and are happy and loved very much by my friend and her partner.

TwistandSprout · 11/02/2023 18:59

I think the exploitation argument rests more on the multi billion pound industry generated from the relinquished babies. These babies are not from the wombs of affluent women with security and education.

Emotionalsupportviper · 11/02/2023 19:06

Newtonsnipple · 11/02/2023 11:38

Sorry but I think these boxes are necessary, those babies were not going to end up suddenly loved/wanted if the boxes are taken away. They will probably end up dead instead.

Access to abortions should be made exceptionally easy. I want a girl/woman to be able to have one the moment she decides she wants one, with the absolute minmum of faffing about.

I've never understood any kind of moaning like 'ooo but I know a woman who uses abortion as a form of contraception, she's had so many'.

So?

If that woman even exists, do you think it's a good idea for someone so feckless/irresponsible to have a baby?

Exactly!

Without boxes like these many babies would die - or even be found and sold by unscrupulous people. There is a huge baby market in the uS. Some go to loving families wanting a child. Some don't.

And as Newton says, women /girls forced to keep babies they are too feckless/ young/ depressed/ terrified to care for - what sort of lives would their babies have?

Yfory · 11/02/2023 19:10

"Baby Hatches" have been a thing since at least medieval times. I think they are a good thing.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_hatch

TwistandSprout · 11/02/2023 19:22

Well Bellallalala I have no idea how to answer in a way you understand. There isn’t lots of support available and it isn’t easy to tell who the women are who have a secure wish to and understanding of what it means to relinquish a baby. The importance of birth mothers means that their care needs respecting.

Additionally, relinquished babies ideally have access to health records and the circumstances of their adoption. Birth mothers ideally are supported and when they are most commonly they don’t opt for adoption. Without the benefit of second sight dealing with vulnerable client groups is hard for all parties involved and a run of meetings and a cooking off period projects all parties without harming women who still go ahead with relinquishment. This is the current uk process and I would say it is hard because it’s complicated. It can also be transformative. It’s better than boxes although they too have their use. I haven’t said it should be made harder - it can’t be reduced to the equivalent of dropping off a pair of used shoes to the shoe bank. It’s a process fraught with complexities so even at its best, most mother focussed it is hard. You know I represent two sides of the adoption triangle and worked in this area for years so I suppose I may struggle to separate tangents from the simplistic argument you are looking to support.

whumpthereitis · 11/02/2023 19:41

TwistandSprout · 11/02/2023 19:22

Well Bellallalala I have no idea how to answer in a way you understand. There isn’t lots of support available and it isn’t easy to tell who the women are who have a secure wish to and understanding of what it means to relinquish a baby. The importance of birth mothers means that their care needs respecting.

Additionally, relinquished babies ideally have access to health records and the circumstances of their adoption. Birth mothers ideally are supported and when they are most commonly they don’t opt for adoption. Without the benefit of second sight dealing with vulnerable client groups is hard for all parties involved and a run of meetings and a cooking off period projects all parties without harming women who still go ahead with relinquishment. This is the current uk process and I would say it is hard because it’s complicated. It can also be transformative. It’s better than boxes although they too have their use. I haven’t said it should be made harder - it can’t be reduced to the equivalent of dropping off a pair of used shoes to the shoe bank. It’s a process fraught with complexities so even at its best, most mother focussed it is hard. You know I represent two sides of the adoption triangle and worked in this area for years so I suppose I may struggle to separate tangents from the simplistic argument you are looking to support.

Everyone has their version of a perfect world, where people act exactly as you desire them to and whatever you envision needing is easily accessed without question of complaint.

except that isn’t the world we live in. Unfortunately, in pursuit of an ideal world ideologues often forgot to be pragmatic, or are outright disdainful of the concept, and its invariably others that pay the price. That isn’t to say don’t work towards realizing what you want to see (whether you’ll achieve it or not is another matter), but at the same time you have to work with the world as it is, and people as they actually are.

buckeejit · 11/02/2023 20:31

So sad that these are needed. But the baby will be adopted in 30-45 days? That's so fast, doesn't leave a lot of room for any extenuating circumstances or remorse

Bellalalala · 11/02/2023 20:57

TwistandSprout · 11/02/2023 19:22

Well Bellallalala I have no idea how to answer in a way you understand. There isn’t lots of support available and it isn’t easy to tell who the women are who have a secure wish to and understanding of what it means to relinquish a baby. The importance of birth mothers means that their care needs respecting.

Additionally, relinquished babies ideally have access to health records and the circumstances of their adoption. Birth mothers ideally are supported and when they are most commonly they don’t opt for adoption. Without the benefit of second sight dealing with vulnerable client groups is hard for all parties involved and a run of meetings and a cooking off period projects all parties without harming women who still go ahead with relinquishment. This is the current uk process and I would say it is hard because it’s complicated. It can also be transformative. It’s better than boxes although they too have their use. I haven’t said it should be made harder - it can’t be reduced to the equivalent of dropping off a pair of used shoes to the shoe bank. It’s a process fraught with complexities so even at its best, most mother focussed it is hard. You know I represent two sides of the adoption triangle and worked in this area for years so I suppose I may struggle to separate tangents from the simplistic argument you are looking to support.

You aren’t answering the question at all.

You said that support should be widely available (it should) and the relinquishing the baby should be made harder. In this magical supportive world, you think it should be harder.

I asked, why? Why should it be made harder, even if there is support available? How does it help the mother or baby to make it difficult if, despite the support being there, the mother doesn’t want to raise the child. It’s actually a huge risk to both mother and child.

In the magical world (that you brought up) where all the support is there why do you think it’s better to make it harder for women, who don’t want to raise their kids, to relinquish their child.

Of course we have no way of knowing who wants to give a child up and who feels they have to. But we are talking about situation you mentioned, where all the help would be available. You think that the support being there, means that women who make this choice freely should be forced to access the ‘support’ in the hope it puts them off.

No one said there shouldn’t be a cooling off period. That doesn’t mean the mother should be forced to engage with support or continue to care for a child they don’t want to. That’s a recipe for disaster for both woman and child.

And yes, it’s not ideal, there would be consequences. The child wouldn’t have readily available health history. There’s trauma that comes from that. But making it difficult for a woman who chooses this, also could cause trauma and consequences. Fatal consequences in some situations.

We are talking about less than ideal situations. So there will always be consequences. I just want to know why you think, if support is there, it should be made harder. That’s it.

Support isn’t support if you are using it to and manipulate someone into making a decision, that you think they should make.

TwistandSprout · 11/02/2023 21:58

I haven’t said it should be harder you have said I said that. I said that relinquishing is a necessarily hard process. Again this is about the ordinary process - we don’t do baby drop off boxes in the UK.

You mentioned asked why it should be hard for women who have all the support they need and I am saying no women enter services like that which is why it’s pointless magical thinking to engineer scenarios where women arrive wanting to relinquish fully cognisant of the legal and practical considerations - the place where they get support is during the process. At the least this is a run of SW meetings but more usually it’s multiagency support.

I say with support most women do not want to relinquish not that they should be brow beaten into this position. The process is neutral but it will force exploration of misconceptions and things that haven’t been considered. This is hard but an important part of making an informed decision.

I don’t know why you think the process means The birth mum would care for the baby - I never said that. Typically baby would be in foster care and mum would have a level of access she was comfortable with. It would be possible for her to never see the baby between birth and the signing of documents around six weeks later.

I think that the support is hard because of what it demands of a birth mother not because it’s punitive or manipulative and it needs to be demanding so these mothers can make informed decisions..

Bellalalala · 11/02/2023 22:07

TwistandSprout · 11/02/2023 21:58

I haven’t said it should be harder you have said I said that. I said that relinquishing is a necessarily hard process. Again this is about the ordinary process - we don’t do baby drop off boxes in the UK.

You mentioned asked why it should be hard for women who have all the support they need and I am saying no women enter services like that which is why it’s pointless magical thinking to engineer scenarios where women arrive wanting to relinquish fully cognisant of the legal and practical considerations - the place where they get support is during the process. At the least this is a run of SW meetings but more usually it’s multiagency support.

I say with support most women do not want to relinquish not that they should be brow beaten into this position. The process is neutral but it will force exploration of misconceptions and things that haven’t been considered. This is hard but an important part of making an informed decision.

I don’t know why you think the process means The birth mum would care for the baby - I never said that. Typically baby would be in foster care and mum would have a level of access she was comfortable with. It would be possible for her to never see the baby between birth and the signing of documents around six weeks later.

I think that the support is hard because of what it demands of a birth mother not because it’s punitive or manipulative and it needs to be demanding so these mothers can make informed decisions..

You said ‘The Op wants women to be supported and if they are it should be made hard to relinquish a baby’.

Thats you that said that. I asked why and you went off on all sorts of tangents. Even claimed you answers my question but I just didn’t understand.

Now you say you didn’t say it At all.

If the support is ‘hard’ it’s trying to get her to change her mind. Many who aren’t sure (and even ones that aren’t) won’t even engage with the support (if it existed) that is there to try and convinced them they shouldn’t. Or they may keep the baby as they feel pushed into and something awful could happen. Support should be support. Not a way of making a process more difficult in the hope they change their minds. That’s not support.

steff13 · 11/02/2023 22:10

Safe Haven laws have existed across all fifty states for many years. The boxes allow someone who wishes to utilize the law to do so without having to speak to a person.

Also, Roe v Wade was recently overturned. Safe Haven and baby boxes have existed since well before that. Abortion is still legal in most states. It's available for free at Planned Parenthood as well as free on Medicaid, and has been.

steff13 · 11/02/2023 22:13

It's also very rare for a baby box or Safe Haven to be utilized by anyone. Hence why it makes the news when someone does it. I guess it's never happened in the UK, though.

TwistandSprout · 11/02/2023 22:53

Yes I said that for what the OP was talking about the baby boxes that while sometimes necessary they don’t give the mother support - getting support to make an informed decision is hard. It shouldn’t be made easy or quick because women don’t arrive fully informed or always capable to make that decision.

The situation is hard, the support is hard not because it wants women to change their minds but because it focuses on the reality of adoption in the UK. The mother who thinks her husband and the baby’s father has no rights finds he does, the woman who wants no link realises that the adoptee is entitled to their records at 18 and that immediate relatives can request contact via social services post 18 means a sibling could find their adopted sibling, another realises that the DNA sharing sites mean the wider family may be easily linked. Another hasn’t thought about explaining this to the children she already has or hasn’t thought what the postnatal period will be like. Baby boxes may be necessary in some places but they are not ideal on any level - they just tell us how fucked things are for these girls and women.
Adoption is hard all round on birth mothers, on adoptive parents and on adoptees - relinquishing should be a hard process because it reflects the reality of that. Support is supporting a woman to make a decision in full understanding of the legal realities and the long term implications.

I can’t face repeating myself again so good night.

saltinesandcoffeecups · 11/02/2023 22:57

steff13 · 11/02/2023 22:10

Safe Haven laws have existed across all fifty states for many years. The boxes allow someone who wishes to utilize the law to do so without having to speak to a person.

Also, Roe v Wade was recently overturned. Safe Haven and baby boxes have existed since well before that. Abortion is still legal in most states. It's available for free at Planned Parenthood as well as free on Medicaid, and has been.

Quoting this in hopes that given two chances to read it, that it might get noticed.

This thread is something else.

To @TheObstinateHeadstrongGirl your stance is utterly bizarre. With an average of 50 abandoned babies in the UK I’m wondering what’s wrong with your country that you don’t have these boxes. The fact that child abandonment is illegal isn’t a justification for not having them as it’s also illegal in the US unless it happens under the safe haven laws.

Per hrsa.gov
Every year infants are illegally abandoned in the U.S. In 2021, 31 babies were placed in dumpsters, found in backpacks, or discarded in other dangerous locations. 22 of these infants were found deceased. 73 babies were saved by Safe Haven laws in 2021.

Seems to me that 73 lives were saved by these boxes. Your contention is that they should have been forced to take their chances with the 31 who were abandoned illegally?

Oh and for those in back… RoeV.Wade was overturned in 2022.

ZiriForEver · 12/02/2023 00:49

US is what is horrific here, babyboxes can be ok.

I live in continental Europe. In my country abortions are legal and safe. We have universal maternity leave&pay. Not ideal, but much better than US (at least in this aspect).
We still have babyboxes here (approx for 20 years) and they get used sometimes, not in huge numbers, scaled to population size it would be about 70 children a year in the UK or 340 children a year in the US.

Our law says it is illegal to endanger baby by abandoning it, but babybox is a special safe provision, so it doesn't count as endangering the child. Mostly conservative activists complain it violates child's right to know it's origin, but it is generally seen as protecting child's life, so taking precedence.

xprincessxjanetx · 12/02/2023 01:19

I understand the need for them and how useful they are to prevent babies being abandoned or struggling mothers to safely hand over their babies but I must admit when I read this story earlier I did cry! I'm not even sure why but I am 9 weeks pregnant with twins so i'm assuming it's the extra hormones!

mathanxiety · 12/02/2023 01:32

Can everyone please stop talking about 'the American system' of adoption?

Adoption law is a state remit. State laws vary and the process varies from state to state. So does the balance of rights of the various parties involved.

It's an instant giveaway that you don't know what you're talking about.

QuestionableMouse · 12/02/2023 01:42

WandaWonder · 11/02/2023 10:06

If babies were put first then there would be less need for these boxed

Adults do not so they are needed

Sure sad but necessary

Maybe more education for men and woman about only having a baby if you are ready may help, until then they are needed

This is so incredibly shortsighted I don't even know where to start...

mackthepony · 12/02/2023 01:51

Given the situation of women in the US, it's a good thing they exist.

mackthepony · 12/02/2023 01:56

Abortion is illegal in 11 US states, including amongst others,

Alabama
Arkansas
Idaho
Kentucky
Louisiana
Mississippi
Missouri
Oklahoma

*

So that means if a woman is raped, can't afford contraception or for whatever reason she does not want that baby, she doesn't the right to have an abortion. Absolutely shocking

erehj · 12/02/2023 04:29

@MintJulia where did you get that statistic? It seems extremely high.

The impression from newspaper reporting is that this is pretty rare in the uk.

erehj · 12/02/2023 04:32

ShippingNews · 11/02/2023 12:18

In what way is this linked to abortion laws, when about 1 baby per WEEK is abandoned in the UK ? I'd be happy to see Safe Haven boxes available here, to save those babies from a cold and neglected death .

Where are you getting that statistic?

erehj · 12/02/2023 04:39

And there aren't only 2 options for women that don't want their child - abortion or baby box.

Women can surrender their children voluntarily for adoption thr, which does happen in the US (it doesn't really happen in the UK anymore).

They can be monitored and supported by social services, provided with parenting support and mental health support.