to want to use the bus like everyone else?

[toddlertamer20]

Hi,
I'm a single mum of 3, live in london and am now reliant on a wheelchair. I use buses to get around as I don't drive. I'm just getting so sick and tired of people being so incredibly selfish on buses. Wheelchairs have the priority, as obviously we cannot fold, however, as I have found out in the last few years, if there are prams on board and they refuse to fold...there is not much the driver can do as they can't be physically removed.
Most of the time, if a bus comes along with 2 prams, I will wait for the next bus. But sometimes I have to be somewhere and considering that is the only spot I am able to use on the bus, I feel like I should be allowed to use it. Everytime I insist that I need to get on it either a)end up with an argument eith the driver as he won't ask people to move or fold their prams....then a call to TFL who apologise and promise the educate the driver again.
b) I get let on but then the people with the pram won't move and argue with me, one of these times the driver was oblivious that I was mid gangway still and pulled off causing me to be thrown into a pole and break my arm. Or c) They just pull off and don't even attempt to let me on or put the ramp down.
Today again I ended up in a big argument. I needed to get a bus to get my youngest from school. The bus didn't come for ages. It eventually came but 3 buggies were on board, one without a child in it. The driver tried to tell me the next bus would be along in 20 minutes to which I said I couldn't. So he played the announcement asking the people to move their buggies. Then suddenly another passenger comes to the door and informs me that I need to wait as the people with the prams were there first. So I told him that actually by law I have priority, and I need to be on this bus. He then proceeds to tell me how I just need to wait and can't just get on and kick people off. At this point I was late already to get my child from school, so I did insist I got on. In the end I was allowed on bus got a mouthful off both the parents with the prams. I just don't know if it's me. I can understand it's frustrating if you're on a bus and suddenly you have to move or fold your pram up, but I cannot fold my wheelchair. It feels like everyone thinks I am in the wrong when I'm trying my best to just be a normal mother! Please tell me there aren't just selfish people put there...or is this honestly just me?
(by the way I do try to leave super early to make sure I have plenty of time to get there but then I am also waiting outside in the cold and I have problems with my joints so not a good combination)

Yes. The wheelchair user has priority in the wheelchair space. Over both buggies, standing passengers and luggage. That means people need to get off the bus if there isn't space. But people on London transport are used to squashing up literally into each other's armpits so it would have to be the height of rush hour for standing passengers to have to get off.

Correct. It's not saying you don't have to get out of the wheelchair space.

I’m just genuinely curious on that one - I get folding down a buggy to make space for a wheelchair, but if the bus was full including standing passengers, I’d be pretty pissed off at having to get off to make space for someone else - how would they actually decide who gets off? I normally choose to stand on a busy bus to make sure those that need it get a seat, but if this means that I’d need to be the one to leave the bus if a wheelchair user needed the space, I’m going to make sure I always get a seat! (Which shouldn’t be an issue since I get on at the first stop)

Why not? If I'm being made to get off a bus in the dark and cold with my newborn twins why shouldn't and bodies adults do the same? Unless I have less worth than because I have my child with them?

In most cases there's room for half a dozen people to find a seat that currently has a handbag on it or move properly down the bus. Too often half a dose people stand right at the front because they don't want to sit by someone else and then no one can get by.

I will concede that on a capacity-full bus, its impossible for a bus driver to who get half a dozen people to do what he'd be expected to do to a parent with a pushchair.

But interesting that you don't think able bodied people should have to move from using a space not meant for them.

I've been using buses in london regularly for 40+ years and I've never seen this happen. So I wouldn't exercise yourself overly about it.

I have often seen parents with ridiculous huge buggies refusing to move them.

Exactly! Well said.

Anyone in that wheelchair designated space should vacate it.

I used to use the bus a lot and it only happened a couple of times. Signs were clear.

Whoever is in the wheelchair space gets off. If you stand or sit or put a buggy in a wheelchair space, then you accept that if someone in a wheelchair gets on you have to either move or leave.

It's quite simple. If you're in the wheelchair space and a wheelchair user requires it, you need to get out of it.

So, considering all the arguments and differences of opinion on this post, I'm hoping at least some of you can see what I have to face every day just getting from a to b. If it's not buggies, it's suitcases, or shopping trolleys, ladders or people standing there. Another thing people tend to do is try to shift the buggy over slightly and think I can squeeze myself into the gap. They do get really annoyed when I inform them that I need the entire space clear, just to manoeuvre in, as safety wise, my back needs to be against the backrest, to stop the chair tipping when the bus takes corner etc. After I am in they're welcome to try to put the buggy back in as best they can. I've also had people become very annoyed when they do this, but then the wheelchair slips slightly (if a corner is taken tightly or the breaks are slammed on the bus, it does jolt slightly)...and it knocks their pram. I had one man tell me that if I injured his baby he would sue me? But his buggy was by the feet of my wheelchair, and in this instance I was on the bus first. It just seems endless and hard work. I wish I could walk upstairs and avoid all bus conflicts.
Also I am unable to drive due to one of my medical conditions.

No. You are by default in the wrong when you refuse to move and allow a wheelchair into the wheelchair space. That is what people are saying. You know it. I know it. Everyone here knows it.

All that is happening now is trolls trying to create an argument. If this was a discussion about parent and child parking bays they’d be arguing that they once had a child so they should be allowed to use the bays anyways even if they didn’t have their children in the car. These are the same types of people who abuse everything they can in society because they have been raised with prima donna complexes and things the whole world revolves around them. It’s their parents that are at fault because that was their parents value system, and of course their kids are going to be worse still.

Standing is saying she will move or get off though!

For me, it depends on the bus.

My first two buses of the day (to drop my children off) are very quiet, I rarely see more than one other person on it. We stand in the designated pram space (which is not the disabled space) and my daughter takes a seat for the journey she is with us.
my third bus of the day is different. I get on at the first stop, when the bus is empty, but it soon gets really, really busy, since it’s a city bound bus at rush hour. I’m on this bus for over an hour. I normally stand in the standing space because the bus is used by many older passengers and I like to make sure they get a seat. I’ve never been in a position where a wheelchair user has tried to get on, but it would be very difficult for them to do so, since every seat is taken and the standing space is full too.
In this case, would it be first come first served, or would standing passengers be asked to leave the bus?

(bus has a label which clearly states the capacity with wheelchair user and a capacity without a wheelchair user - capacity is significantly lower if a wheelchair user is present)

Luckily our bus app is live and states how many passengers are present and if there is space for a wheelchair user, which might explain why I’ve never actually come across this issue? I don’t know.

In this case I’m most definitely ensuring I take the seats before the bus gets busy!

Just to clarify I don’t mean that it depends on the bus as to who gets priority - I mean I moderate my behaviour (what space I use) depending on the demographics of people using the bus - I’ll take a seat if there is unlikely to be a seat needed by anyone else, but I always thought I was being “helpful” by not taking a seat for my journey, since I am physically able to stand. However it seems that some people think standing is selfish? If I would be expected to leave to allow someone else on if I’m standing in the standing area, I’m going to ensure I take a seat on each journey, since I can’t just wait on the next bus or id be late for work.

Not in the wrong. You aren’t asking them to be kicked off you’re saying they can fold the prams, which they can

In this case, would it be first come first served, or would standing passengers be asked to leave the bus?

If those standing passengers were in the wheelchair space, the latter. Because it's the wheelchair space. It's not complicated.

Why on earth are we still having discussions about this? If you stand in the wheelchair space, you run the risk of having to leave the bus. If you sit there, you run the risk. If you lie down there for a nap, stand on your head, or use the space as a dancefloor, you run the risk. It really is not complicated.

I commuted on buses for 15 years and the only people ever causing arguments were mums with tank-prams. On crowded buses with standing commuters, people in the space left without being negotiated with once the ramp came out.

You didn't see standing people refuse to move or be asked to move and refuse?

Not personally, no. I probably take the bus about 4-8 times a week average and I've lived in London almost all my life.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I haven't personally seen it, so I think it is less frequent. Mostly people standing up are willing/able to squash down a bit further. People with buggies seem much less willing to move.

When my kids were very small (too small for a McLaren) I mostly used a sling, walked, or took the tube.

I've never seen tip-up seats labelled as priority seats before.

Incidentally it looks like the internal layout of your bus is broadly similar to the ones here, with luggage space over the front left wheel. That answers the question of "what do i do with the folded pram?"

Is yours full depth? Cos ours starts at hip height and is basically the size of a metro newspaper so people will move your stuff to get their paper. There's no way it's big enough for my double buggy and even if I could lift it that high and fit it in, it wouldn't be safe y the first corner turn!

In ye olden days there was proper space on the floor with a metal barrier. You still wouldn't fit my double in it (and no, an umbrella won't take two fat toddlers and my sons o2) but at least it gave sensible options to most people

Starts at hip height, and there's a rail around it. No Metros around here, nearest place you'd see a stack of fresh ones would be Chester Station.

If you choose to stand in a wheelchair space you can't complain if you get moved for a wheelchair.

Huh, assumed metro was on all buses. But even without them, no way its a safe place to store buggies without a railing to hold it in properly, it's a lawsuit waiting to happen!

YANBU and this really pisses me off.

I was on a local bus just before Covid, and there were two mums with kids aged about 3 in them, they took up both wheelchair spaces on either side and we're not even sitting next to their offspring, preferring to sit a few rows back and talk and scroll on their phones.

There is a lovely local lady about my age (mid 40s) who is in a wheelchair. I see her regularly and once when DS was younger he asked why she was in a pushchair (I was mortified, she laughed, and said she had been a soldier but had an accident and now she gets to race all day, bless her for taking it so well).

Anyway she was at the stop and so she tried to get on. Driver tells her sorry, there are buggies, so she points out that legally, she has the right to ask them to be moved or fold their buggies up.

Considering these were children able to walk and sit on a chair, I couldn't see an issue.

Driver huffs and sighs and gets out his booth, rolling his eyes and says, whose buggies are these. At first, the two women ignored him. Another passenger points at them, they then winge about the kids being settled and why can't they wait?

He says "oh, I know, it's a nuisance but you know what they're like". I was so angry for the lady in the wheelchair, like she wants to be in that position

They refused to move.

Luckily, a passenger near the front shouts, loudly, "you do know you are breaking disability rights law, that is a priority space and you need to move your brats. Sorry if that means you may have to stop chatting bollocks to each other and parent them but tough".

I was so amused and wished I had the balls but I'm shit at confrontation.

They actually got off the bus.

I did email the bus company but didn't get a response but the driver was just as bad.

I can't imagine how hard it is getting around London. People are so selfish. And what's the point of rules of they aren't enforced?