to want to use the bus like everyone else?

[toddlertamer20]

Hi,
I'm a single mum of 3, live in london and am now reliant on a wheelchair. I use buses to get around as I don't drive. I'm just getting so sick and tired of people being so incredibly selfish on buses. Wheelchairs have the priority, as obviously we cannot fold, however, as I have found out in the last few years, if there are prams on board and they refuse to fold...there is not much the driver can do as they can't be physically removed.
Most of the time, if a bus comes along with 2 prams, I will wait for the next bus. But sometimes I have to be somewhere and considering that is the only spot I am able to use on the bus, I feel like I should be allowed to use it. Everytime I insist that I need to get on it either a)end up with an argument eith the driver as he won't ask people to move or fold their prams....then a call to TFL who apologise and promise the educate the driver again.
b) I get let on but then the people with the pram won't move and argue with me, one of these times the driver was oblivious that I was mid gangway still and pulled off causing me to be thrown into a pole and break my arm. Or c) They just pull off and don't even attempt to let me on or put the ramp down.
Today again I ended up in a big argument. I needed to get a bus to get my youngest from school. The bus didn't come for ages. It eventually came but 3 buggies were on board, one without a child in it. The driver tried to tell me the next bus would be along in 20 minutes to which I said I couldn't. So he played the announcement asking the people to move their buggies. Then suddenly another passenger comes to the door and informs me that I need to wait as the people with the prams were there first. So I told him that actually by law I have priority, and I need to be on this bus. He then proceeds to tell me how I just need to wait and can't just get on and kick people off. At this point I was late already to get my child from school, so I did insist I got on. In the end I was allowed on bus got a mouthful off both the parents with the prams. I just don't know if it's me. I can understand it's frustrating if you're on a bus and suddenly you have to move or fold your pram up, but I cannot fold my wheelchair. It feels like everyone thinks I am in the wrong when I'm trying my best to just be a normal mother! Please tell me there aren't just selfish people put there...or is this honestly just me?
(by the way I do try to leave super early to make sure I have plenty of time to get there but then I am also waiting outside in the cold and I have problems with my joints so not a good combination)

I have baby twins. I would absolutely have to fold a pushchair for a wheelchair user. But I physically couldn't do this. Therefore I feel I can't easily use a bus, and so don't. It restricts me. Modern buses in the UK are not fit for purpose. We shouldn't have to chose between wheelchairs and pushchairs in the same space.

Why would their need trump that of the wheelchair user? You chose to have children, and the post C section problem is very temporary; the disabled person doesn't close to be in a wheelchair, and their disability is usually permanent.

Yes, that’s what I said in the part you quoted. I assumed when you said “others need the space” that you felt both parties were equally entitled to it, based on their needs. That’s what I was objecting to. It seems that we agree though so no worries.

Most buses can fit a buggy and a wheelchair and whilst we bus a LOT with my preschooler twins still in a buggy cos I'm a terrible mother 😂 the times I've needed to get off are quite low. But our service is bloody awful anyway, missing the odd bus here or there for someone I na wheelchair isn't that notable 😑

I didn’t say it trumps it - read again. I said that it’s perfectly reasonable that a parent doesn’t dismantle their pram in the off chance that someone MAY need the space for a wheelchair, there may be legitimate reasons why mothers do not automatically dismantle their prams when boarding a bus, and it’s not easy for all mums to do so / mainly in reference to an earlier poster who suggested that people with prams should pay a flat fee of £10 for every single bus journey they undertake if they choose to use an otherwise empty space on a bus. This would cost me a minimum of £40/day just to get my children to and from school and nursery, which is ridiculous when I’ve literally never seen a wheelchair user on any of these 4 daily journey I take - if I did, I’d dismantle my buggy, but in the early post c section days I’d have needed help to do so.

If anyone uses first bus, their app is quite useful - it live tracks buses and lets you know if there are seats, standing space and wheelchair spaces available.

How dare the man in the wheelchair use the wheelchair space. Those lazy wheelchair users, using what they campaigned for and are legally entitles to.

Of course it didn't occur to you. You just wanted to bitch about a disabled man being lazy.

So on an empty bus you use the only space available for a wheelchair user? You could literally have a seat for your work bag, another for jotters, one for you, one for your daughter, a different one for your daughter's school bag.

But you need the wheelchair space.

@LangClegsInSpace
Depending on the tech, London is good, the charge could be wiped automatically if no one needs the space.

So use the space but if you refuse to move for a wheelchair user then the £10 is charged to your card? That would work.

I'm really sorry you're going through this. Contact the local authority regarding transport. They may make you do a bit of extra paperwork as it's not transport due to distance. But the LA should offer it on medical grounds based on the face you're in a wheelchair, as long as you can provide evidence from a medical professional that getting to school is causing great difficulty.

If you live more than 2 miles away from the school you may also be entitled due to the school being out of walking distance.

If you do apply and get rejected, don't be afraid to appeal. Local authorities will usually overturn their decision if you appeal. Good luck x

The "buggies should always be folded" argument is irrelevant on many buses, London buses included. There is a specific sign saying "pushchairs may use this space when not required by a wheelchair". I'm therefore bemused by the people (and there's usually a few) saying buggies should always be folded when buggy users have this specific permission. Folding every time, even when there is not a need, is not what the bus company/ bus drivers expect or want you to do. They don't want you messing around on the bus with your loose bags and children looking for somewhere to stow your buggy if this in unnecessary. That just delays everyone. All buggy users need to do is respect the priority and move/fold if necessary. They have specific permission to use the space unless it is required by someone with greater need.

Why is this so difficult?

If you need to use the bus often and you have a child who can't yet walk/walk far - buy a buggy suitable for the bus that you can fold one handed

• use a sling
• take a bag or rucksack you can put your shopping in and get used to travelling light

If you need to use the bus and have a child who uses a medically prescribed 'buggy that is a wheelchair' then you are entitled to use the wheelchair space if you got there first.

If you need to use the bus occasionally but your buggy doesn't fold one handed, get off if a wheelchair user needs to get on.

If you have a guide dog, someone should vacate the nearest accessible seat that is not already occupied by a priority user - park dog under the seat as they are trained to do. Ditto assistance dogs. If you need to use the bus often, pick an assistance dog sized suitably for that purpose.

If you're someone with a hidden disability that needs a priority seat near the front of the bus, wear a lanyard that says that and ask someone near the front of the bus to vacate their seat for you, or get off the bus and wait. If you're a parent, see the first set of options.

If the idea that priority spaces go to those who need a wheelchair that they cannot fold enrages you - you get off your arse and campaign to the local authority and the bus companies for buses that provide more accessible spaces.

If you're a disabled person who needs the priority space and finds on a particular route that is not happening - get yourself a camera that straps on to you or your chair. Get on the bus. Lock your wheels. Do not move until someone shifts their arse. Direct action is the only way. Then when you get home, use that footage on social media and to the bus companies and police.

We shouldn't still have to fight this shit but those who went before us chained themselves to the fucking fronts of buses, do we need to go back to that to have our voices heard?

Of course wheelchairs have priority. Educate yourself.

And the word you’re looking for is incredible, not incredulous.

I think there would be less potential for conflict if we went back to folding before boarding personally. Of course they'd need to bring back the luggage areas.

That being said I bet back in the days when everyone folded new mums didn't have people putting the fear of God into them over babies needing to be in lie flat carrycots until 6 months or they won't breathe properly. I don't think anyone now would dare use an umbrella fold for a tiny baby.

It's a possibility he's being practical - it's going to be easier for him to go a few stops than trying to navigate pavements with cars / street furniture, kerbs, ect.

Does it matter what I do when nobody else is there? Why would I scatter my belongings halfway across a bus for a hypothetical wheelchair user that doesn’t exist? Given that I use the bus at set times, as do most bus users, it’s highly unlikely that the wheelchair space will be required (I do a backwards commute travelling against the flow of traffic at very very off peak times)

Our buses actually have space where a wheelchair and two prams can use the space so it’s highly unlikely to be an issue.

Also, the wheelchair user might need to consider battery life. It may be that “only four stops” would mean they can’t get there and back, which is why they need the bus.

I suppose making this post does make it obvious how many people don't realise that they have to fold their prams if the space is needed by a wheelchair user.
I mean I have experienced it so many times. I've had countless comments from parents about how they got there first. I've been told it's ridiculous that the driver has let me on. And when I try to tell (only certain people, not everyone..!) that actually I am entitled to use this space over them, they can get really funny and argumentative. I've been told more times than I can even remember that 'Yes but I was here first, it wasn't needed by a wheelchair so I'm using it and I'm not moving'. I have complained to TFL so many times. I've sent them evidence etc. and every time without fail I get the same response, which is that they are sorry this happened and the driver will be educated but they cannot let me know of the outcome. The email is a copy and paste jib, as I've had so many near identical emails its ridiculous. The people I speak to on the phone at TFL seem outraged when I tell them the problems....but when it goes further you get just the same apology email again and again.
I have given up complaining most of the time now. There was one about a year ago that I did complain about, mainly to query with TFL about what he told me. I tried to board the bus and was told by the driver he had a buggy. I said I could probably fit with the buggy and I needed to get this bus. He was for some reason really rude to me but eventually lowered the ramp. I put the wheelchair in position and the woman with the pram was huffing and puffing. Her pram was very big but I told her she could fit it back in as best as she could, yet she didn't even try and just left the bus muttering under her breath. The driver, who hadn't yet pulled off, got out of the cab and stood there and said I should have thanked her for getting off. I said 'huh? why.. ' (I didn't ask her to leave!) and ge told me that she was using the space and prams now have priority and don't have to move. I did complain to TFL about this one and was assured he was talking absolute rubbish. But I can literally give you hundreds of stories like this, you would not people how rude and nasty some people can be. I didn't want to be in a wheelchair, I would much much rather be able to go and take a seat upstairs and go unnoticed, not have everyone's eyes on me. But unfortunately I have to use this chair, and only have one spot I can use on the entire bus. I'm actually a shy person and hate conflict, even on the days where I have no problems, I'm constantly dreading it waiting for another issue.
Also the person who said get on the bus and dput my breaks on and refuse to move, I could do this but the problem I'd that often the driver doesn't even out the ramp down so I physically can't get on the bus.

I would just call the police next time, OP. You are 100% in the right.

I’m a slightly different case because I use a rollator. I prefer to sit on that because the low seats cause me pain.

i have experienced the same. I have been told to move by a buggy user because “you are not a wheelchair”.

Legged people have raced me to the spot to stand by the padded head rest. People have refused to get out of the way in the wheelchair stop.

i fell over on the bus and had to stay on the floor because people wouldn’t get out of the wheelchair area. I needed to turn my rollator round to get up. I was on the floor trying to turn the equipment round so I could pull myself up, the person kept pushing it back at me because I was encroaching their space.

I have had to move out the way for a wheelchair user because the buggy users wouldn’t get out the way. Then the guy pushing the wheelchair started moving the empty buggies and he caused an argument. He was nice to me though.

my favourite moment was a buggy user attempting to fold my equipment so she could get her buggy in. I shouted at her because she was nearly breaking it and she acted arsey.

WiddlinDiddlin
If you're a disabled person who needs the priority space and finds on a particular route that is not happening - get yourself a camera that straps on to you or your chair. Get on the bus. Lock your wheels. Do not move until someone shifts their arse. Direct action is the only way. Then when you get home, use that footage on social media and to the bus companies and police.

I wonder how many of these self-entitled prima donnas will change their opinion and start letting wheelchairs access the wheelchair spaces once their hissy fits are on social media. I’m guessing they’re all mouth on the forums but will be all weepy when the papers ask for their opinion to be repeated.

OP, have you looked into taking TfL's unsatisfactory identical responses further? It's pretty clear that they really are not training their drivers properly. I'd be tempted to ask them via a Freedom of Information Act request to give full details of precisely what training they give drivers on use of wheelchair spaces and their powers when it comes to enforcing their proper use, how often that training is repeated, and what they do when a driver is identified as having failed to use his or her training - i.e. is it a reprimand, retraining, further sanction for repeated offences, or what?

You might also find that the Equality and Human Rights Commission would be interested in pursuing this for you. TfL would certainly take things more seriously if they thought they were likely to have a disability discrimination claim against them.

OP take this further. Write your your MP detailing what’s happening. The drivers should lower the ramp and ensure the wheelchair space is available.

The problem is, the drivers can’t make the entitled pushchair owners fold or move them. The wheelchairs have a legal priority for the wheelchair space, but who enforces that?

The driver enforces.

In my city the driver doesn’t move off. They ask users to make space.

Some drivers are obviously too much in a hurry and people with mobility difficulties feel like an inconvenience