To think that 'gender affirming care" is barbaric and should be banned?

[Appalonia]

This article is from the US but these procedures have been carried out in the UK. Teenagers who are confused and vulnerable do not have the mental capacity to consent to puberty blockers, cross sex hormones or life altering surgery.

Please read this devastating article from a whistleblower who has been working in a gender clinic in the US.

www.thefp.com/p/i-thought-i-was-saving-trans-kids

I didn't say there was anything wrong with people who don't fit! I didn't even say there were people who don't fit! I think a wide range of behaviour is normal. I don't agree with stereotyping.

I said that at a population level there are innate behavioural differences between very young boys and girls. This allows for a very wide range of behaviour at an individual level. There are also differences due to socialisation of course.

I haven't heard of the study you mention, but do know that these innate differences in behaviour between male and female infants have been observed in other primates too - and socialisation has been controlled for in these experiments in a way that's not possible for humans.

Think you made a mistake in typing

At a population level there is no evidence that the differences we see are innate

Hec - years ago it was boys who wore pink frills and women who were computer programmers - the very fact these things change in time ( and cultures ) proves that most is society

And even if there are innate differences- that SHOULD NOT matter at all

Everyone should be free to be themselves

No one should be changed to fit a narrow stereotype

I didnt make a mistake typing thanks @midgemadgemodge.

I agree everyone should be free to be themselves. Neither do I agree with stereotyping people.

I've already said this. I don't know why you are arguing with me.

I am arguing because if the nonsense you spout

Nonsense that people use to try and justify physically harming children

Then you have completely misunderstood what I have said @midgemadgemodge.
I believe there are differences between men and women. I do not believe in gender stereotyping - I am GC.
These are not mutually exclusive positions.

That article is a really tough read OP. Heartbreaking.

I would say I'm more qualified to say than many, as the parent of a trans 18 year old.

This statement is one of the most disturbing on the thread. It certainly does not carry the weight of authority it sets out to impose on the discussion.

Whistleblowers have gone on record as saying SOME parents have given them enormous concerns. Not necessarily the poster that put this comment, but the point remains. Whistleblowers are saying they are seeing examples where they believe the child is being sexually abused, where the parents are using it to trans away the gay, where they believe the parents are engaging in munchausens, where they believe the child is mentally suffering from other issues, where the child is expressing the view that their parent want it more than them.

And then to cap it off, unqualified pressure groups and parents are bullying staff or bypassing safeguarding/ ethics to ensure their child is medicalised despite significant concerns.

The idea that it's 'no one elses' business fails when you are talking about minor setting themselves up for life long medicalisation and risky surgery / hormones. Society has a responsibility to safeguard child from harm.

On another day, this comment might be let slide. But not today. Not with the concerns Barnes'book raises. Not when Susie Green acts in a very disturbing manner and seems to be evading accountability. She was that parent too. Who stacked her reputation on being an expert because she was a parent, despite having absolutely no medical knowledge at all. And she and Mermaids have been huge drivers of the emerging scandal which has left even kids who remain happy transitioned with massive regrets about the medicalisation.

Given the same poster thinks the Tavi should stay open despite all the evidence to the contrary about how cavalier it was in dismissing the disturbing comordibities that were emerging and the power of money preventing accountability, I think it very much discredits their opinion as carrying authority.

Indeed I would go so far as to say, the poster, and any other saying similar should be under a magnifying glass as it seems that children identifing as trans should be treated as a big red flag in its own right for other things precisely because of the level of comorbid concerns. The parents of trans identifying children should be under immense scrutiny and treated with a degree of caution in terms of whether they really have their child's best interests at heart.

Given this poster is also parroting discredited bollocks about suicidal intent it's even more worrying. They aren't properly informed despite protesting that they have expertise.

Gender affirming treatment is not neutral and there's every reason to believe it's causing enormous harm because it's being carried out by schools before a child even sees a doctor in some cases and often without parental consent. And we DO have evidence of the physical harms' blockers, hormones and surgery is causing and conversely no real evidence that they actually are improving the life or mental health of children. Because there's no proper studies going on.

I'm afraid any adult advocating hormones or surgery for minors gives me massive cause for concern and I certainly don't think the parents of a trans identifying kid should be treated as any kind of authority whatsoever because of the danger of a potential conflict of interest between them and their child's well being. Such is the ideology and omerta style culture around the subject.

The people who have run these clinics for decades should be brought to court and prosecuted for unwarranted experimentation of children which has caused harm.

Also treating people with respect and caring for their health - applies to trans identifying children.

They deserve us to ask these difficult questions. It's not hating them to do so. It's caring enough about them to ensure harm isn't done because parents and activists have rigged the system and caused safeguarding and ethical standards to be steam rollered

It's interesting who we see the framing of hate coming from. Often the very people claiming they are the most concerned about the welfare of these children. It doesn't add up to be true.

If they were properly invested in the best care available, they would be actively seeking better data and better oversight. Not going round shouting 'transphobia' as their argument against scrutiny of this area of health care.

@Tandora No one is born in the wrong body. It's not possible. What you are doing is pushing gender stereotypes, in order to say they're born in the wrong body. It is much a mental illness as anorexia is, so you are wrong and deeply ill-informed. Both trans and anorexia believe their body is wrong and want to change it. They are EXACTLY the same thing. It is mental illness, a delusion, when we should be encouraging body positivity and to be happy in the body you've got, because it's the only one you'll have. What you are doing is encouraging delusions and fostering mental illness, telling these people they're right and should change their body. You are brainwashed and your attitude is dangerous.

Great posts, @RedToothBrush !

Fantastic posts, @Helleofabore and @RedToothBrush .

@SnackSizeRaisin to return to the point you raised in answer to my previous post: are you in the UK? I don’t recognise what you say about girls being “expected to” have long hair or “encouraged to” sit down quietly and do colouring in. This isn’t what I see around me for my own children or their peers, and it’s certainly not been our experience of any nursery or school setting I’ve come across; if this is what you’re experiencing then it’s very important to raise this with the setting and complain. Other parents as well as Ofsted would take an extremely dim view of regressive gender stereotypes being reinforced in this way.

I see football and rugby teams for girls and ballet classes open to both sexes. I see girls in comfortable leggings (there’s no obligation to buy sparkly “pretty girl” clothes, you know; there are plenty of cheap, bright, practical clothes available) and trainers that allow them to run and climb and ride horses. I see boys and girls absorbed in Lego and reading stories and learning cooking as well as other crucial life skills. I see 17 year old girls passing their driving tests and boys aspiring to be artists and having families one day.

Nobody bats an eyelid at anything listed above and nobody with their marbles intact should imply that any of this must mean that the children engaged in these activities - such as boys wanting to go to ballet or girls climbing trees - have “been born in the wrong body”.

I genuinely don’t recognise your world, @SnackSizeRaisin . Perhaps you are a time traveller from 1900.

I do see @SnackSizeRaisin's point, @FrancescaContini. Yes, there have been a lot of changes since the 1900s, but we're not there yet.

Re clothing - there are often threads on MN complaining that girls' clothing is that bit skimpier than boys' clothing. Girls' shorts, for example, are generally shorter and/or tighter than boys' shorts - and this is true even for young children.

A bit difference I see these days is the effort that teen girls go to for a night out on town. The tiny dresses, the make-up, the heels. Absolutely fine if it were all optional of course, but I fear it's not, not really. And it must be a lot of pressure for at least some of the girls who are just becoming accustomed to their changing bodies. I'm an oldie and when I was a teen in the 80s it was absolutely fine to attend a disco in your jeans and plaid shirt. I don't know, the expectations and focus on apperance these days - in particular on girls and young women - doesn't seem like much progress to me.

Tears to my eyes! Really moving to read this as I also have first hand experience of what GIDS was about.

My friend DD, now a trans man is autistic and full of it to the point of setting a crowdfunding to have the top surgery, which is euphemism for double mastectomy, rather than wait on NHS.

Most of these girls haven’t had sexual experiences yet. They do not understand what they are giving up.

😭

@Mommawasafarmgirl You only focus on clothing and appearance rather than the larger issue of the different activities being offered to boys and girls which @SnackSizeRaisin implied is common.

I certainly agree that making clothing for girls that seems to be “skimpier” or shorter etc than the equivalents for boys is simply outrageous BUT as parents we can choose not to buy such clothing for our daughters and instead allow them to wear clothes that enable them to move freely and feel warm/cool and comfortable.

Equally, teenagers can choose not to adopt the narrow, fake Love Island “look”. I don’t see much of this at all in the young people around me so perhaps it depends on where you are in the UK.

So I still disagree with @SnackSizeRaisin ’s point about there being fixed expectations of the different sexes. It’s perfectly possible to raise your children free of regressive, narrow stereotypes. Many of us brought up in the 70s and 80s were raised in this way without any talk of “being born in the wrong body”.

Do you also believe only over-25s should be able to vote, join the army, buy houses, etc? What about other medical decisions - can under 25 year old adults consent to, e.g. drugs like Roaccutane, or chemotherapy drugs, or disease modifying therapies for MS, all of which can have very severe side effects?

Find it very, very weird you're crying over the potential sexual experiences of a young person who evidently does not want to have those experiences.

Many of these people are too young and inexperienced and troubled to make properly informed decisions @housemaus. That’s what makes it so heartbreaking. Those of us who have lived longer know that many will regret their actions and wonder why someone didn't help them when they needed help.

Chemotherapy and roaccutane come with recognised side effects. They are studied and documented.

It’s not just that wrong-sex hormones and blockers are serious, it’s that no one actually knows what the fuck will happen long term How is that consent?

Let’s take a few examples:

Male, treated with puberty blockers at Tanner stage 2, then oestrogen, spironolactone. Now 21, has a micro penis, never had an orgasm. Would quite like to have fertility and sexual function, comes off wrong-sex hormones, hopes his testes will start producing testosterone.

Will he regain any lost sexual function? Probably not, but who knows? There’s no research.

female, aged 20, gone through a female puberty,no blockers, wants testosterone. Not sure whether she may want to get pregnant “later on”. Has heard of “seahorse” dads who become pregnant.

She wants to know how long she’ll have to come off testosterone for that to happen. What do you tell her? No one knows. She wants to know her risk of vaginal atrophy, uterine atrophy. What do you tell her? She has a family history of heart disease, she wants to know if testosterone will increase her individual risk? Will her life expectancy be reduced by exogenous testosterone?

What do you tell her? No one knows.

Male, treated with puberty blockers at Tanner stage 2, then oestrogen, spironolactone. Now 21, has a micro penis, never had an orgasm. Would quite like to have fertility and sexual function, comes off wrong-sex hormones, hopes his testes will start producing testosterone.

Will he regain any lost sexual function? Probably not, but who knows? There’s no research.

I don’t think this is the correct issue. What is the issue is it’s perfectly predictable that there will be a zero chance of regaining any sexual function, and the gender clinic doctors either don’t tell them, or lie to these children and claim “everything will be fine.”

I’ve seen this happen: a gender doctor deny the reality that a child will have any sexual function or fertility. They’re lying to themselves as much as the patient.

So as much as there are unknowns that cannot be consented to, there are known that can be predicted that children are not and cannot be adequately consented to, often on purpose.

YABU

No she isn't, she is reasonable, compassionate and sensitive.

In addition to the physical impacts of PBs followed by long term wrong sex hormones, no one knows the impact on mental development. We know children change in all sorts of ways mentally during puberty and many of those changes are driven by hormones. What happens if you simply don't have them? No one knows.

The obvious problem as well with the comparison to other drugs, like chemotherapy, is that they are used to treat a physical medical condition.

Whereas hormonal manipulation in gender affirming care takes a healthy body and reduces/stops its healthy sexual and reproductive function.

The dismissal of the drugs like Lupron is very harmful. There are women out there who have reported significant life limiting issues from being prescribed it for precocious puberty. I have a friend who used it for another of its prescribed uses in the 90s.

10-15 years after she had a fall which nearly left her unable to walk, 15-20 years later she was diagnosed with severe pancreatitis and diabetes. 25 years later she has such significant osteoporosis she breaks bones doing normal activities, her pancreas is nearly ceased functioning, her teeth are falling out, she has other organ damage.

Reading the accounts of other women, the symptoms she has are the same ones as those who have taken Lupron. The information is out there, women are raising their voices but are ignored.

Just like the known effects of taking testosterone as a woman is known because of those who took it for sports performance (including those who had no idea what they were taking).

And there is now research into the risk of very early dementia in female patients who have had to had their ovaries removed in late 20s or earlier. And the research is into those losing ovary function due to other health conditions, not even beginning to touch on atrophy from testosterone.

The detransitioners too often report significant health issues with their bladders, and other organs.

All these major life limiting and shortening health issues are not discussed widely in public. I suspect there are a few reasons from power of pharmaceutical companies to ignore the issues and not do the research into long term effects, to the reports of a community who doesn’t tolerate those suffering adverse effects speaking out.

Either way, the number of posters I have seen over the years who simply hand wave it all away with ‘it is treatment for trans people, you just don’t understand’. Fuck that! The risks for female transition seem so much higher than for male transitioners. Yet the majority of those young people transitioning at the moment are young females. And people raising alarms are framed to simply ‘hate trans people’.

The risks for female transition seem so much higher than for male transitioners.

Im not sure about that, those fake vaginas seem to be total medical liabilities. But perhaps a much smaller number get to that stage.