To think that 'gender affirming care" is barbaric and should be banned?

[Appalonia]

This article is from the US but these procedures have been carried out in the UK. Teenagers who are confused and vulnerable do not have the mental capacity to consent to puberty blockers, cross sex hormones or life altering surgery.

Please read this devastating article from a whistleblower who has been working in a gender clinic in the US.

www.thefp.com/p/i-thought-i-was-saving-trans-kids

YABU for posting yet another incredibly boring trans thread in the MN echo chamber

Caring about vulnerable teenagers being exploited is sooooooo dull

Interesting reading the replies. I answered first and was expecting to be shot down in flames. I find the move towards being "pro" trans gender worrying. I am not "anti" trans gender and I think people should be able to be who they want to be. But the teenage years are driven by hormones, and you can't trust the average teenager to like the same flavour of ice cream two days running, let alone something this fundamental.

Both cases I know were girls on the larger side, and I think social media played a large part in their decisions. They didn't fit the stereotype, and it was easier to "be a boy" which is bizarrely more acceptable in some eyes, than not being a stick-thin girl. I was that girl on the larger side and I was labelled a tom-boy, as I opted to wear more boyish clothes rather than short skirts etc. But I grew out of it and my curves became my asset 🤭

Ignoring the fact this is about trans people, at what age does someone have bodily autonomy? Do teenage girls have the mental capacity to choose to have an abortion (or not) if they later go on to regret their choice? FWIW I don’t think anyone under the age of 18 should be having these surgeries, but they’re both optional procedures, so I don’t know how one is justified and the other isn’t?

Just to clear things up, it's next to impossible to get support let alone any form of treatment for trans kids in the UK.

And what is this obsession with Trans people in general? Let people make decisions themselves about their own bodies. It's no one else's business.

This with bells on!

This

I'm think they are completely different things.

A woman if any age could regret having an abortion but terminating a pregnancy does not deny you the possibility of having children in the future.

The consequences of removing healthy breasts, having a hysterectomy and taking wrong sex hormones are permanent.

This is clearly not true when you look at the growing list of UK detransitioners - young people who have undergone medically unnecessary surgery and hormone treatment.

There are at least 6 gender clinics around the country - the one near us had a minimal waiting list and made a referral for cross sex hormones after one or two appointments.

There are many UK private clinics who promote their services on social media to young people and crowd funding is a popular way to fund the £7/8,000 it costs. You would be amazed at how many well meaning but utterly ignorant people there are out there willing to facilitate this harm.

We have even seen some celebrities contributing.

There are funds established and being expanded by organisations like Gendergp (owned by a doctor struck off for providing puberty blockers to young children with virtually no assessment of proper oversight) which more well meaning people contribute to and young people wanting surgery or cross sex hormones can apply for funding.

This isn’t about trans people, this is about children and vulnerable adults being sold an impossible dream as a way of solving all their problems. There are many people in trans forums and even universities who are very invested in persuading others that they are trans.

I read an article recently by a student at university who was feeling a bit depressed and visited her university gp who persuaded her that she was actually trans (having had no previous history of gender dysphoria) and started her on hormones straight away. She is now trying to recover her health and praying that not too much damage was done.

I agree that attempts to change your sex/gender, whatever you want to call it, are permanent and probably significantly more damaging. But individuals who regret having abortions are psychologically damaged, and can never bring back that pregnancy. I don’t want to come across as a pro-lifer here because I’m far from it, and I do think they are different things, but I’m struggling to understand why I think they’re different.

Should people ever have bodily autonomy that allows them to amputate healthy body parts and take non medically necessary drugs that are known to cause serious harm to health?

I think so actually, yes. People have cosmetic surgery that’s completely unnecessary and carries risk, and are allowed to do so.

Out of the thousand or so patients she has seen, she only references a half dozen specific anecdotes of poor experiences for transgender youth patients (you'll note that, despite these, the trans patients continue to identify as trans). She leaves out the stories of what must be the rest of the thousand patients who saw their mental and physical health improve dramatically.

The writer is not a doctor, psychologist.psychiatrist or reasearcher and did not have direct experience with patients. She advocates stopping gender affirming care for trans youth - something that would result in real harm to this population.

the author of the piece feels the origin of people's dysphoria just about anything else except being trans, even including obesity ( if you took a random sample of American teens, I'm fairly sure at least some would fall into this category)

she repeats this odd assertion that autistic people don't know themselves well enough to be truly lgbt

Bicalutamide is used to treat “metastatic prostate cancer.” Bicalutamide is also used to treat hair loss and excessive facial hair in women. The outrage!

The author cites one detransitioner (out of thousands the clinic saw).

So you've made your little mumsnet thread, all the self -identified 'vipers' will come and affirm your view, some people will reply to me aghast that surely one detransitioner is one too many, and hardly anyone will consider the fact that gender-affirming care saves lives. (And yes, I do think it's right that age-limits in UK are more stringent than in the us)

she repeats this odd assertion that autistic people don't know themselves well enough to be truly lgbt

LGB is not the same as T.

I would say I'm more qualified to say than many, as the parent of a trans 18 year old.

There is one NHS clinic in the uk which treats children and young people. This is currently closing and restructuring. There are thousands on the waiting list, most of whom never get to the top before they are 18. CAMHS has a gender pathway, for which my son waited from the age of 14, and never got seen, and has now been discharged from CAMHS as he turned 18.

The services to support gender questioning and trans young people are grossly inadequate, which has resulted in the rise in private practice such as gender gp.

I believe that the reason some people detransition is the lack of support for young people, not too much of it. If there was more support, counselling and discussion before gender affirming medical treatment and procedures, young people could be supported to make an informed choice which is right for them as an individual.

Many years ago I had Mermaids in as part of a series on diversity (for which I was sponsor at the time). They did a good presentation about how to provide accepting care (as opposed to affirming care) and the importance of accepting and leaving all doors open. Their position then was that most children experiencing feelings of gender dysphoria would likely settle into gay or bisexual orientation or simply be gender non conforming but settled into their own sex. This was before Susie Green took over.

A few years later considering having them back the position had completely changed - it was all affirmative and promoting early medication, breaching all safeguarding rules by excluding parents from the discussion etc. The whole focus was shifted. Anyone even wanting to do research on methodologies and longitudinal studies was a heretic under #nodebate. We didn't have them back.

The problem is when ideology trumps evidence and compassion the main victims are the very people the ideology claims to help.

Sorry about the large gap in the post..

Firstly I want to be transparent - I am pro trans rights, as a rule.

That said, I think we are doing HUGE damage to these young people which in decades time will be looked at with horror. There are a few key issues here:

1. We have NO long-term research on the impact on puberty blockers and hormone treatments on the body and brain. It doesn't exist.

2. Unlike homosexuality (which was a mental disorder but declassified), I believe transgenderism is a psychological problem that needs investment and treatment. Being gay was often distressing because society demonised gay people for decades. Trans folk feel an inherent discomfort in their own bodies - similar to those with anorexia or body dysmorphia. Would we affirm to an anorexic child that they are fat and need to lose weight? Of course not. What is the difference?

3. Social contagion which has ALOT of evidence. I don't buy that there has been a (something like) 5000% increase in referrals to gender services in the past decade, simply because more trans people can come out. But when you start talking about being able to "choose" your gender in schools, to impressionable young people, you sow the seeds of doubt.

4. I was an effeminate boy, into dolls etc. I turned out to be gay (then bisexual, don't ask!) Had I had this option I may well have thought I was a girl and I wouldn't need responsible adults affirming that to me.

5. The pattern of people with autism, anorexia and personality disorder being disproportionately trans is completely ignored. This is astounding. All three have a disordered sense of self (or an inability to form relationships/feeling disconnected from society). Yet nobody is willing to raise this as an issue.

If you are an adult you can make all the decisions you want. Fine. For children though, lets watchfully wait and not jump into affirmation.

Wow! Thankfully medical ethics does not agree with you. The Hippocratic oath says ‘first do no harm’

A doctor who was performing unnecessary leg amputations on patients with a mental illness (j would say that by definition, wanting to remove healthy body parts is a form of mental illness) was made to stop.

Sadly these days the Hippocratic oath is not applicable to people who have mental health issues around identity and self image and people are being harmed. There is a world of difference between making minor alterations to a nose or breast implants and entirely removing breasts or a penis or uterus and ovaries.

It is well known that doctors make women who want a hysterectomy wait until after they are 30/35 because they might change their mind about wanting more children. Adopt a trans identity and you can do it at 18. That doesn’t make any sense.

@Meaningofthesea "The writer is not a doctor, psychologist.psychiatrist or reasearcher and did not have direct experience with patients. She advocates stopping gender affirming care for trans youth - something that would result in real harm to this population."

Nonsense. The "harm" is the distress these young people experience as a result of their psychological state. Would you tell an anorexic person that if they think they are fat then they are? That if they want to stop eating because of that belief that then is okay?

What we need is evidence based psychological treatments for trans children so that they can accept and tolerate the fact that they feel disconnected and in the wrong gender.

We need to stop this nonsense that non-affirmation leads to suicide. That isn't true. The psychological condition makes trans people more likely to experience misery that leads to suicide. Is society non-acceptance a factor? Sure. But that doesn't mean they haven't got a psychological problem.

As I said I am actually pro trans rights. And at the same time I can't patronisingly agree with - what is essentially - a body dysmorphic illness.

I would say I'm more qualified to say than many, as the parent of a trans 18 year old.

So there's an awful lot at stake if it turns out some years down the line that gender affirmation for your child was not the correct path.

@EdgeOfACoin and also a lot at stake if I don't support him. Such as suicide.

I believe that the reason some people detransition is the lack of support for young people, not too much of it. If there was more support, counselling and discussion before gender affirming medical treatment and procedures, young people could be supported to make an informed choice which is right for them as an individual.

Exactly. Children and vulnerable young adults are being allowed to rush into making these decisions and self diagnosis is blindly accepted without adequate support or questioning.

In fact, the recent proposed law on change on Conversion Therapy would outlaw any exploration of whether social or medical transition is right for the patient or whether an alternative, non trans solution would be more appropriate.

Doctors and psychologists (and parents) will have to unquestioningly accept the self diagnosis of a young person in a mental health crisis who may have been groomed by trans activists, online or in schools, to think they are trans.

They are very likely to turn out to be gay or autistic and not trans at all (people with autism tend to latch onto simple solutions for feelings of ‘difference’ and are disproportionately likely to be referred to a gender clinic - this needs urgent investigation) but because there is inadequate exploration before they jump into medical intervention from places like Gendergp and other private or NHS clinics, there is huge risk of getting it wrong.

"If there was more support, counselling and discussion before gender affirming medical treatment and procedures, young people could be supported to make an informed choice which is right for them as an individual."

Uh yes, but that is now called "conversion therapy" and people are campaigning for it to be banned.

"We have NO long-term research on the impact on puberty blockers and hormone treatments on the body and brain. It doesn't exist."

Exactly. The likely effects of an abortion on the patient, good and bad, are well understood. We know much less about long term effects of medical "transition", and what we do know isn't good at all.

And yet people are saying its ok for teenagers to make these decisions, when we otherwise don't let them get a tattoo.