Being mistaken for the PA

[BingBoings]

Twice this week I have been in email chains, where I have been asked to supply dates for a meeting.

The reason for this has in both cases, I assume, is that I am the only female name in the thread.

Both situations have seen large numbers of clients and colleagues copied in on emails where… I am asked if I can help give times when my male colleagues are free. I am usually senior to them.

Am I the only person this happens to? I find it half hilarious, and half embarrassing… A few months ago I was asked in a meeting if I could do coffees when I walked in…

i have no issue with managing my own diary nor is there any issue with being a PA… it’s more that I don’t see men having this issue…!

This is down to our biology. Instinctively, we look to men as leaders. Don’t hate on people when this happens, just smile and laugh!

Biology is bandied about a lot by reactionaries to justify sexism. (I've also heard 'biology' being used to justify worse by the way). Smiling and laughing like a good little girl is never going to command respect.

This happens to me fairly regularly. It only goes to show how far we have to go.

That told me! I do know what you mean, but at the end of meetings people all file out and I feel bad that the minimum wage cleaning / catering staff are left with a mess to clear up. It's common decency to at least put empty cups back on the trolley.

The problem here is the attitude towards “subordinates.” It is inappropriate to look around a meeting room for someone you think is subordinate to you and then try to order them around. An administrator is not a “subordinate” to someone in a completely different role. It is not offensive to be thought to be an administrator, it is offensive to be thought to be a subordinate incapable of doing a more lofty-sounding job. Both men and women need to change their attitudes.

It is interesting reading this, what posters have allowed colleagues away with, I don't mean a big fight, but going to GET the coffees, just because it was assumed that was their role.

It shows me that although some people can be assertive in their intimate relationships they aren't assertive as a go-to at work. I seem to be the other way around. I can say 'no' or ignore an inappropriate request a t work easily but until I was 45, every boyfriend just plundered me like a subordinate resource. So I'm not judging anybody who went to get the coffee!! It's kind of interesting that the two are not connected, necessarily

If nothing else, the contributions of the male participant on this thread demonstrate that sexism continues to be alive and well.

He himself hasn't experienced sexual discrimination in the workplace, so he can't imagine it happening to women.

Imagine being on the receiving end of sexual discrimination in the workplace and taking your complaint to a boss like that. 😢

I'm comforted however by the knowledge that things are changing, albeit slowly. I'm an academic and have seen awareness of gender inequality rise gradually in my workplace over the decades, although there is still a long way to go.

This post is just so depressing.

If only we all tried a little harder to 'obliterate' those pesky social constructs and prejudices.

For what it's worth (though I doubt you'll listen), I spend every day in meetings as the only woman. Financial services. Middle management. It's tiring and frankly a bit boring. But actually there is so little diversity of thought, I know it's harmful to the business. And some of the men I work with are a bit like you - think they are in their role based purely on merit and their ability to assert themselves, ask for pay rise or lead a meeting. Absolutely 0 ability to show empathy for any other group who questions whether it is a level playing field. It still isn't by the way - despite what you might think.

Considerably more women than men attend university. The tipping point occurred in the UK in about 2001/2, depending on what you count. So it simply cannot be claimed that women are an under-represented minority in most managerial or professional work environments.

Eh, one thing has nothing to do with the other and number of female university students really does not mean women are also suddenly the majority in managerial positions. As before, just take law.
Female applicants for undergraduate law courses: 69%
Female solicitors: 61%
Female law firm partners: 35%. In largest UK law firms, only 22% of equity partners are female.
So yes it is quite likely that in top management meetings, there will still be very few women.
But yes I'm sure it's all because women are simply not capable. Odd though that women seem to become more and more capable, as yes the number of women in top positions is - ever so slowly, but still - increasing. Now, what's the explanation there? Women getting smarter, while men are not?

@Stewball01
I meant in terms of people looking down on others - if they look down on women, they may well look down on foreigners too..so I've a double whammy! But if they're like that they're likely to look down further on non white people again, ... I was just being precise about where I'd fall in such people's hierarchy

Mark's viewpoint is why I support quotas. Women always say "oh but I don't want the job via a quota, people will just assume I was rubbish and only got the job because of the quota".

No. A quota forces the recruiter to try a bit harder. Not recruit in their own image. Look around a bit more for possible candidates. And where you get a man and a woman (or a white person and a black person) who are equally good, you'll pick the woman or the black person. I actually find it offensive to say women can only get these jobs because of quotas. No, it simply concentrates the minds of the recruiters. Same goes for things like speaking panels. People will say "but I don't know a woman who can speak in this area". Well go and look. "I only know white people who can speak in this area". Well go and look harder.

Oh and it forces people to widen their networks as well. Which might then benefit them as well.

Not RTFT, but has happened to me. I work in the public sector in a traditionally male dominated discipline.
Now I'm a bit older it happens less, but in my 20s and 30s it was a definite thing for me!

If I was the OP and received an email like that I'd email back saying the dates I could do but that I don't know about the others.

Can't bear that word subordinate. It's just an awful word.
I also don't like 'my staff' it sounds awful. What's wrong with 'my team'?

Women always say "oh but I don't want the job via a quota,

Like there haven't been plenty of studies demonstrating that a male candidate will be regarded more competent and deserving a higher salary than a female with exactly the same CV. Or when orchestra auditions are blind, suddenly women become sinificantly more capable. Odd, isn't it.

I worked as a group secretary for a huge well known company. Other staff were nice enough to me but that was it.

For various reasons the MD fired his former EA and offered me the job.

Suddenly all the male directors can't be nice enough to me and ask me out for lunch etc.

They realise that I have a closer working relationship with him than anyone else in the organisation does.

The trouble is, the person invariably men who consider someone as a "subordinate" at work will be the same person who believes there are people put on earth to "make their life easier" both at work and home.

Oh I will be willing to bet he has experienced sexual discrimination in the workplace, it's just he will be the one doing the discriminating

Someone this nakedly mysoginistic would be hard pressed to hide it in a social situation

A (female) friend of mine works of a well known airline as a captain. I won't mention the airline because of the shortage of women captains in the industry and it is not my place to out her. But she does get infuriated when whoever she tells who she works for, there is an immediate assumption she is cabin crew. NB: To cabin crew members, female and male reading this, I am not trying to deny that you do a fantastic job.

I get the same sort of thing. Not sexism but just when you say that you're an engineer. People instantly assume some dirty job fixing washing machines and not a high level office based position. Nothing wrong with fixing washing machines but two completely different things.

Judging by the many similar anecdotes on here, I can't help feeling that women really need to take a different tack with this kind of thing.

In my case I start with the sort of engineering I do and then the company. This almost always leads to more positive conversations. In your friends case, "I'm a captain for BA" would instantly remove the opportunity for assumption. It might not change a conversation with an idiot but at least they're left in no doubt about your position.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the point as I've not caught up with the whole thread yet, but 'dirty' jobs fixing mechanical things is more likely to be seen as a traditionally 'male' job as opposed to working in an office, so I'd probs have thought it more sexist/patronising if they'd thought 'oh, a female engineer....she probably sits at a desk rather than getting her hands dirty.'

That's a possibility @PeanutButterSmoothie but more generally, engineering is predominantly seen as a dirty job in the UK. Ask most people and they won't even realise engineers are office based because the title is so misused. That's the angle I was coming from as it's a common thing for most engineers (male and female).

Either way, the point of my post was that a lot of these 'errors' can easily be mitigated by simply stating exactly what your position is. I'm not victim blaming but leaving it to the imagination just gives people the opportunity to apply whatever subconscious (or conscious) bias they may have. Now that's fine if you're looking for people to reveal themselves but if you find it tiresome then it really is a more positive step to just do things like:

Introduce yourself properly to new colleagues/clients etc.
Put your job title on emails, especially if you're sending out meeting requests with people who don't know you.
In meetings, ask at the outset if everyone knows each other (my company does this routinely).
Bring your own tea/coffee/water to meetings "sorry I've got one already but you're free to nip out and get your own".

I'm sure there are other things that can be done as it's not rocket science.

Well, I certainly don't know as much about engineering as you do, but I've never thought of it as dirty. I might be more inclined to think a 'technician' might be fixing stuff.

I've always thought of engineers as being more like designers, using CAD software type stuff etc.

@PeanutButterSmoothie interesting as a technician in health world is a specialist role often in pathology or radiology or IT hardware etc I wouldn't think of it as a dirty job.

I do tend to think of engineer as hands on and potentially dirty but I'm aware that there are specialist functions that may be less so.

Fascinated to realise it's often a desk based role

It is really sad that people think that way of engineers, they are usually math-geniuses and their degrees are very hard/ difficult