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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

How much does my tenant owe me?

521 replies

Golaz · 10/02/2023 12:25

Hi all,

I’ve had a tenant in my flat on for a few years. She’s been on a rolling contract since the first six months. She normally pays rent on the 11th of the month for the month ahead.

I gave her notice on 22nd January, that I would need the flat back by 16th April. (Under a rolling contract I need to give 2 months notice, but I wanted to let her know earlier rather than later, to give her some time to sort something).

On the 4th February she informed me she had found somewhere and would be moving out probably around the middle of February. I followed up today and asked if she had a date. She told me yes- she’s moving out on the 18th and will return on the 20th to clean the place.

How much rent does she owe me? She’s already paid until the 11th. She seems to think she only needs to pay for an extra week until the 18th , but in the rolling contract she’s supposed to give me one months notice so I feel like she should pay until the 4th March.

AIBU?

OP posts:
DaveyJonesLocker · 10/02/2023 15:51

You gave her notice! She doesn't have to give you notice on your notice. She pats to the 20th if that's the day she has access.

Original poster
Golaz · 10/02/2023 15:53

parlourb · 10/02/2023 15:49

It's not the tenants fault that you won't be moving in yet and have to pay two lots of rent is it. You want her to pay two lots so you don't have to? You asked her to move out , she's moving out and paying until she leaves . For gods sake how greedy.

No my financial circumstances are not my tenant’s fault or problem, nor are hers mine, which is why I want to do what was contractually agreed and/ or fair.

OP posts:
Lunde · 10/02/2023 15:54

Before you get into any legal dispute with your soon to be former tenant are you sure that you have done everything correctly and by the book

  • proper s21 served and not just an informal text exchange
  • deposit protected in proper scheme
  • all gas, electric certificates etc in order

otherwise it could end up costing a lot more tp dispute

Bellaboo01 · 10/02/2023 15:56

Golaz · 10/02/2023 12:29

What do you mean “at best” you think I should let her stay for free ? I’m looking for grown up opinions here.

Show quote history

Well be a 'grown up' and work this out yourself!

Original poster
Golaz · 10/02/2023 15:57

Bellaboo01 · 10/02/2023 15:56

Well be a 'grown up' and work this out yourself!

Show quote history

Oh thank you for your helpful advice!

OP posts:
fyn · 10/02/2023 16:01

She owes you her notice period technically but YABU for being a landlord and not knowing that.

fyn · 10/02/2023 16:01

If you really want to push for it, you’ll likely be successful in recovering the money from the deposit if she won’t pay the full notice period.

Twillow · 10/02/2023 16:07

She seems to think she only needs to pay for an extra week until the 18th
I agree with the tenant. You've given her notice so her giving you notice is irrelevant.

Jaichangecentfoisdenom · 10/02/2023 16:07

Golaz · 10/02/2023 15:53

No my financial circumstances are not my tenant’s fault or problem, nor are hers mine, which is why I want to do what was contractually agreed and/ or fair.

Show quote history

Your tenant's potential financial problems, if you insist on making her pay for rent for longer than she actually stays in your property, will indeed be of your making, not hers, as you are the one who initiated her having to move out and she would presumably not be moving out if you hadn't given her notice first. You can't have it both ways. But I agree, you need to take proper advice.
Maybe you can find something from a landlord's point of view from this site: www.propertyinvestmentproject.co.uk/ As I said above, I think you are wrong, and in the present circumstances, with you having given her notice, she should be able to just move out before the end of the tenancy agreement and only pay you up until the day she leaves. But I am not a lawyer and have only had experience of tenants not paying and outstaying their welcome, so I have no idea if what I just wrote is correct.

Iwantamarshmallowman · 10/02/2023 16:07

DRS1970 · 10/02/2023 12:28

She doesn't have to give you any notice as you have already given her notice. I would say she owes a week at best.

this.

WombatChocolate · 10/02/2023 16:07

But it IS your actions which are likely to put the tenant out of pocket. She is having to move when she didn’t want to and is inconvenienced. Rents have risen and no doubt she’s having to pay more in a new place. So these are consequences of your actions. Yes, you are allowed to serve an S21 (have you actually done that - the legal and only way to serve notice in this situation) but you should also acknowledge the cost implications for her, rather than suggesting it is nothing to do with you all.

It is YOU who has had choice in all of this. YOU chose to serve notice and gave a date to be out. She Co-operated and gave a date within that - no doubt she 5ought she was doing you a favour and getting out sooner than later. Have you acknowledged that effort she made or thanked her for it? I suspect not, because your instinct has been to feel aggrieved and wonder if you can have a full month of rent. You seem unable to think about it from the tenants point of view at all.

And yes, there are legalities in being a LL and first and foremost they need sticking to. But it isn’t purely a transaction like buying and selling widgets, because peoples lives and homes are involved. So it is absolutely right that LLs should consider their timing in issuing notice and the impact on tenants and where possible minimise the negative impacts, rather than purely considering the impact in themselves and thinking the impact on the tenant does not matter or deserve any thought. It is perfectly possible to be a good business person who makes plenty of money from property AND a person who treats tenants as humans and considers them too. In fact, the most successful LLs are extremely good at the latter. Consideration shouldn’t purely be reserved for those we know well and who are our friends. It’s something that should be in all aspects of our lives and as LLs, we owe a duty of consideration to our tenants. It should be the norm and not something people feel is an extra or an add-on or a non-esseentIl.

Silvers11 · 10/02/2023 16:08

You gave her notice and said you needed her gone BY a specific date in April, so that she could sort something out. She has sorted it out and got something else. Under those circumstances I would say that an extra week until the day she actually moves out on 18th Feb is reasonable and fair.

With regard to her returning on 20th to clean the flat I would let her back in to do that, but collect the keys from her on 18th?

Blossomtoes · 10/02/2023 16:10

DRS1970 · 10/02/2023 12:28

She doesn't have to give you any notice as you have already given her notice. I would say she owes a week at best.

This.

Original poster
Golaz · 10/02/2023 16:11

Jaichangecentfoisdenom · 10/02/2023 16:07

Your tenant's potential financial problems, if you insist on making her pay for rent for longer than she actually stays in your property, will indeed be of your making, not hers, as you are the one who initiated her having to move out and she would presumably not be moving out if you hadn't given her notice first. You can't have it both ways. But I agree, you need to take proper advice.
Maybe you can find something from a landlord's point of view from this site: www.propertyinvestmentproject.co.uk/ As I said above, I think you are wrong, and in the present circumstances, with you having given her notice, she should be able to just move out before the end of the tenancy agreement and only pay you up until the day she leaves. But I am not a lawyer and have only had experience of tenants not paying and outstaying their welcome, so I have no idea if what I just wrote is correct.

Show quote history

But by that logic , mine financial problems are equally if her making as she initiated leaving earlier than expected by only giving me a week’s notice 💁🏼‍♀️. To be clear I’m not saying I actually think this; just pointing out the flaw in your logic .

OP posts:
Original poster
Golaz · 10/02/2023 16:16

WombatChocolate · 10/02/2023 16:07

But it IS your actions which are likely to put the tenant out of pocket. She is having to move when she didn’t want to and is inconvenienced. Rents have risen and no doubt she’s having to pay more in a new place. So these are consequences of your actions. Yes, you are allowed to serve an S21 (have you actually done that - the legal and only way to serve notice in this situation) but you should also acknowledge the cost implications for her, rather than suggesting it is nothing to do with you all.

It is YOU who has had choice in all of this. YOU chose to serve notice and gave a date to be out. She Co-operated and gave a date within that - no doubt she 5ought she was doing you a favour and getting out sooner than later. Have you acknowledged that effort she made or thanked her for it? I suspect not, because your instinct has been to feel aggrieved and wonder if you can have a full month of rent. You seem unable to think about it from the tenants point of view at all.

And yes, there are legalities in being a LL and first and foremost they need sticking to. But it isn’t purely a transaction like buying and selling widgets, because peoples lives and homes are involved. So it is absolutely right that LLs should consider their timing in issuing notice and the impact on tenants and where possible minimise the negative impacts, rather than purely considering the impact in themselves and thinking the impact on the tenant does not matter or deserve any thought. It is perfectly possible to be a good business person who makes plenty of money from property AND a person who treats tenants as humans and considers them too. In fact, the most successful LLs are extremely good at the latter. Consideration shouldn’t purely be reserved for those we know well and who are our friends. It’s something that should be in all aspects of our lives and as LLs, we owe a duty of consideration to our tenants. It should be the norm and not something people feel is an extra or an add-on or a non-esseentIl.

Sorry but this is really petty and simplistic logic. You have no idea about the matrix of choices within which I am working. The financial circumstances of myself and my tenant are intertwined as we mutually entered into a contract which involved exchanging money. That doesn’t mean my situation is her responsibility or hers is mine beyond what we contractually agreed.

OP posts:
Puzzledandpissedoff · 10/02/2023 16:19

No my financial circumstances are not my tenant’s fault or problem, nor are hers mine, which is why I want to do what was contractually agreed and/or fair

Absolutely spot on, OP, and something worth remembering next time you read "I'm paying their mortgage", "They have x number of properties and are worth y" and the rest

It's true that a tenant's finances can be made the landlord's problem if they get an awkward one, but then that attract no more admiration than rotten landlords do - as ever, there are unpleasant people in all walks of life

You're doing your very best to be fair though, and that's the right thing to do, so I wish you nothing but the best with it

Jaichangecentfoisdenom · 10/02/2023 16:19

Golaz · 10/02/2023 16:11

But by that logic , mine financial problems are equally if her making as she initiated leaving earlier than expected by only giving me a week’s notice 💁🏼‍♀️. To be clear I’m not saying I actually think this; just pointing out the flaw in your logic .

Show quote history

No, that's not how it works when you're a landlord! The landlord giving notice doesn't mean the tenant has to leave on the specific date the landlord decides, it means the tenant has to leave by that date, at which point, if the tenant doesn't leave for whatever reason, the landlord will have to initiate time-consuming and costly legal methods to get their property back. I don't believe in your circumstances that the tenant is legally bound to give you notice because you were the one who gave her notice first and she wouldn't be moving if it weren't for you giving her notice. But please ask for formal legal advice from someone whose business it is to deal with this in real life, rather than discussing it with randoms on the internet! Maybe the CAB might know, or could point you in the right direction?

Original poster
Golaz · 10/02/2023 16:20

WombatChocolate · 10/02/2023 16:07

But it IS your actions which are likely to put the tenant out of pocket. She is having to move when she didn’t want to and is inconvenienced. Rents have risen and no doubt she’s having to pay more in a new place. So these are consequences of your actions. Yes, you are allowed to serve an S21 (have you actually done that - the legal and only way to serve notice in this situation) but you should also acknowledge the cost implications for her, rather than suggesting it is nothing to do with you all.

It is YOU who has had choice in all of this. YOU chose to serve notice and gave a date to be out. She Co-operated and gave a date within that - no doubt she 5ought she was doing you a favour and getting out sooner than later. Have you acknowledged that effort she made or thanked her for it? I suspect not, because your instinct has been to feel aggrieved and wonder if you can have a full month of rent. You seem unable to think about it from the tenants point of view at all.

And yes, there are legalities in being a LL and first and foremost they need sticking to. But it isn’t purely a transaction like buying and selling widgets, because peoples lives and homes are involved. So it is absolutely right that LLs should consider their timing in issuing notice and the impact on tenants and where possible minimise the negative impacts, rather than purely considering the impact in themselves and thinking the impact on the tenant does not matter or deserve any thought. It is perfectly possible to be a good business person who makes plenty of money from property AND a person who treats tenants as humans and considers them too. In fact, the most successful LLs are extremely good at the latter. Consideration shouldn’t purely be reserved for those we know well and who are our friends. It’s something that should be in all aspects of our lives and as LLs, we owe a duty of consideration to our tenants. It should be the norm and not something people feel is an extra or an add-on or a non-esseentIl.

And to add I have certainly always tried to consider her circumstances and be fair- this is why I wanted to give her notice as soon as I realised I was going to need to move back, rather than waiting until the last moment that I had to give notice, as I wanted to ensure she had time to find somewhere to live. I really do hate the idea that I am uprooting someone from their home.

OP posts:
WombatChocolate · 10/02/2023 16:21

No OP. It was you who was in control of the timescales, not her. YOU asked her to leave and gave the deadline. She probably thought she was doing you a favour by going sooner. But are you grateful? No. Instead you think about some weeks you won’t be getting rent…not about the fact she’s probably now having to pay a higher rent as rents are rising all the time.

It’s really important to take responsibility for our actions and to acknowledge when our actions have impacts on others. It was legal for you to serve notice. However, it will have had negative implications. You should be willing to accept those. Many LLs will always think actively about how to minimise those negative implications, because they feel it’s their duty to do so. You don’t seem to have any interest in this kind of thing, or your tenant as a person who needs a home, just as a source of income. Of course, renting properties does generate income, but it’s always different to selling widgets….people are involved and homes are involved. As I said before, it’s possible to be a great business person and make plenty of money and also to be considerate of people and treat tenants as people and to consider how choices might impact the, and try to minimise negative impacts. But first, you have to have the attitude that this is important ….if tenants are just faceless revenue streams to you, and there’s never any thought given to impacts on them, it probably isn’t the right business for you or the rental world.

Flyinggeesei234 · 10/02/2023 16:22

Clymene · 10/02/2023 12:37

Fucking hell, you've kicked her out of her home and you're moaning about two weeks' rent.

Do you think rental agreements shout ever end?! Ridiculous comment.

Alexandra2001 · 10/02/2023 16:26

As you asked what is "fair"....

She has paid your mortgage for many years and you ve seen the value of your flat increase in value, she on the other hand has had none of these financial advantages..

What you appear to want is for her to pay rent on two properties, so you incur little or no financial loss but it was you who gave her 4 months notice, instead of two, she has to go for the first place she sees, rentals don't hang around.

Up to you how you proceed but if i was in your position, i'd let it ride, you ve done well over the last few years and as my financial aware bro said to me once "leave a bit in the barrel for the next guy"

thecatneuterer · 10/02/2023 16:27

@TreadLight Your legal knowledge is around 7 years out of date here. It hasn't been necessary to relate notice periods to the date the rent is paid for a long time now. The landlord has only to give two months notice plus time for it to be deemed 'served' if it's being sent by post.

From the NRLA website:

Prior to the Deregulation Act 2015 landlords serving notice during a contractual periodic tenancy had to serve a notice that ended on the last day of a rental period. This is no longer the case in England and the Form 6a can expire on any day provided the notice is sufficiently long.

Bellaboo01 · 10/02/2023 16:27

Golaz · 10/02/2023 15:57

Oh thank you for your helpful advice!

Show quote history

You're welcome :)

ConsuelaHammock · 10/02/2023 16:29

She’s paid you rent for 6 years? I’d ask her to pay the week and let it go.

Original poster
Golaz · 10/02/2023 16:29

WombatChocolate · 10/02/2023 16:21

No OP. It was you who was in control of the timescales, not her. YOU asked her to leave and gave the deadline. She probably thought she was doing you a favour by going sooner. But are you grateful? No. Instead you think about some weeks you won’t be getting rent…not about the fact she’s probably now having to pay a higher rent as rents are rising all the time.

It’s really important to take responsibility for our actions and to acknowledge when our actions have impacts on others. It was legal for you to serve notice. However, it will have had negative implications. You should be willing to accept those. Many LLs will always think actively about how to minimise those negative implications, because they feel it’s their duty to do so. You don’t seem to have any interest in this kind of thing, or your tenant as a person who needs a home, just as a source of income. Of course, renting properties does generate income, but it’s always different to selling widgets….people are involved and homes are involved. As I said before, it’s possible to be a great business person and make plenty of money and also to be considerate of people and treat tenants as people and to consider how choices might impact the, and try to minimise negative impacts. But first, you have to have the attitude that this is important ….if tenants are just faceless revenue streams to you, and there’s never any thought given to impacts on them, it probably isn’t the right business for you or the rental world.

Ok we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

I don’t think she is leaving earlier to do me a favour- she wouldn’t be interested in that at all. She has great boundaries and is absolutely doing what it right for her, as she should. I am glad for that. I respect her as a person and I am grateful for the cordial and transparent way that she has always communicated with me, and sticking to her word (as not everyone is like that).
beyond that I don’t think I owe her any particular gratitude.
All I want is to do what we mutually agreed and/ or what is fair which is why I came asking for advice on this thread. It seems like the consensus is she pays until she leaves as a matter of decency so I have agreed to that (as per her proposal). Whether that is per the contract seems to be an open question , but based on the responses on this thread I suspect she is actually contractually required to pay until 10th March. But I should do my own research if I want the legal answer.

OP posts: