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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

How much does my tenant owe me?

521 replies

Golaz · 10/02/2023 12:25

Hi all,

I’ve had a tenant in my flat on for a few years. She’s been on a rolling contract since the first six months. She normally pays rent on the 11th of the month for the month ahead.

I gave her notice on 22nd January, that I would need the flat back by 16th April. (Under a rolling contract I need to give 2 months notice, but I wanted to let her know earlier rather than later, to give her some time to sort something).

On the 4th February she informed me she had found somewhere and would be moving out probably around the middle of February. I followed up today and asked if she had a date. She told me yes- she’s moving out on the 18th and will return on the 20th to clean the place.

How much rent does she owe me? She’s already paid until the 11th. She seems to think she only needs to pay for an extra week until the 18th , but in the rolling contract she’s supposed to give me one months notice so I feel like she should pay until the 4th March.

AIBU?

OP posts:
skoobidoop · 11/02/2023 10:56

Golaz · 11/02/2023 09:57

The only thing I asked for was a deposit. But anyway , I’m not going to quibble over it, I don’t want to be unfair to her and it seems that the norm is not to insist on notice after a section 21.

it's all just discussion, as unless the deposit is in a protection scheme and you are up to date with all the gas/electricity certification etc even the notice request you've issued isn't enforceable.
The right thing is the tenant pays rent until they hand the keys back. If you push for rent after they have left, you are in highly questionable territory legally.
*my partner is a housing officer

Debred78 · 11/02/2023 10:56

SherbetDips · 10/02/2023 13:16

@Clymene She hasn’t kicked her out or her home. She’s given her 4 months notice to leave OPs property. A property she was renting ..do you not understand how rental properties work? They don’t belong to the renter they belong to the owner.

Congratulations. You just made 36% of the UK homeless. The house may not be the property of tenant, but to suggest they shouldn’t consider it their home is actually horrific.

pleasehelpwi3 · 11/02/2023 10:57

LL here, in very similar situation I charged the tenant up until the day they handed the keys back which was the day they moved out. Seemed fair.
Also gave them all their deposit back as the only damage was wear and tear, and gave them a hand with carrying their stuff out.
So for you, charge till the 20th.

WombatChocolate · 11/02/2023 11:03

The thing is OP, that you say you’re not here to represent LLs, but you are one and so you are representing them. The way you talk and comments you make influence people’s views.

Now clearly you do t care about that. You’re clearly very individualistic and only interested in yourself. You are interested in getting the maximum rent you can from the tenant, even though it was you who served notice. You’re not interested in them or the fact they could end up paying 2 lots of rent or higher rent for a new property elsewhere, through your choices. You’re also not interested in how LLs appear to other people…because you’re going to stop being a LL. All you’re interested in is yourself. When anyone (and lots of LLs have commented on this thread to suggest you are being unreasonable and that some appreciation of a good tenant and not looking to squeeze for the last penny) comments suggesting you are putting LLs in a bad light, or they wouldn’t consider doing what you’d like to (charging to final point you gave notice for) or points out the implications on tenant, you purely say you don’t care about those things, or that the tenant actions impact you.

It’s so disappointing that someone is only willing to consider themselves and is unwilling to develop any empathy for others. Posting on a forum like this which is read by many, doesn’t purely provide an answer to your personal question, but it IS providing evidence of LL behaviour. Sadly, many people have a negative view of LLs as money grabbing, unreasonable and with zero respect for tenants. You have supported their view. Lots of LLs have posted on this thread to counter your views. That is encouraging. Unfortunately, what people will remember from this thread is your views.

I hope your tenant finds a professional LL next time, but also a more human one.

HedgeWitchy · 11/02/2023 11:05

Ultraninja · 10/02/2023 12:26

I'd just be relieved that she's going without any fuss and is even going to come back and clean.

This

Golaz · 11/02/2023 11:07

WombatChocolate · 11/02/2023 11:03

The thing is OP, that you say you’re not here to represent LLs, but you are one and so you are representing them. The way you talk and comments you make influence people’s views.

Now clearly you do t care about that. You’re clearly very individualistic and only interested in yourself. You are interested in getting the maximum rent you can from the tenant, even though it was you who served notice. You’re not interested in them or the fact they could end up paying 2 lots of rent or higher rent for a new property elsewhere, through your choices. You’re also not interested in how LLs appear to other people…because you’re going to stop being a LL. All you’re interested in is yourself. When anyone (and lots of LLs have commented on this thread to suggest you are being unreasonable and that some appreciation of a good tenant and not looking to squeeze for the last penny) comments suggesting you are putting LLs in a bad light, or they wouldn’t consider doing what you’d like to (charging to final point you gave notice for) or points out the implications on tenant, you purely say you don’t care about those things, or that the tenant actions impact you.

It’s so disappointing that someone is only willing to consider themselves and is unwilling to develop any empathy for others. Posting on a forum like this which is read by many, doesn’t purely provide an answer to your personal question, but it IS providing evidence of LL behaviour. Sadly, many people have a negative view of LLs as money grabbing, unreasonable and with zero respect for tenants. You have supported their view. Lots of LLs have posted on this thread to counter your views. That is encouraging. Unfortunately, what people will remember from this thread is your views.

I hope your tenant finds a professional LL next time, but also a more human one.

There’s not a word of this that is warranted, justified or representative of the reality of the circumstances in any respect.

If people want to project their own baggage onto my simple request for advice, that is certainly not my problem .

OP posts:
silverclock222 · 11/02/2023 11:15

WombatChocolate · 11/02/2023 11:03

The thing is OP, that you say you’re not here to represent LLs, but you are one and so you are representing them. The way you talk and comments you make influence people’s views.

Now clearly you do t care about that. You’re clearly very individualistic and only interested in yourself. You are interested in getting the maximum rent you can from the tenant, even though it was you who served notice. You’re not interested in them or the fact they could end up paying 2 lots of rent or higher rent for a new property elsewhere, through your choices. You’re also not interested in how LLs appear to other people…because you’re going to stop being a LL. All you’re interested in is yourself. When anyone (and lots of LLs have commented on this thread to suggest you are being unreasonable and that some appreciation of a good tenant and not looking to squeeze for the last penny) comments suggesting you are putting LLs in a bad light, or they wouldn’t consider doing what you’d like to (charging to final point you gave notice for) or points out the implications on tenant, you purely say you don’t care about those things, or that the tenant actions impact you.

It’s so disappointing that someone is only willing to consider themselves and is unwilling to develop any empathy for others. Posting on a forum like this which is read by many, doesn’t purely provide an answer to your personal question, but it IS providing evidence of LL behaviour. Sadly, many people have a negative view of LLs as money grabbing, unreasonable and with zero respect for tenants. You have supported their view. Lots of LLs have posted on this thread to counter your views. That is encouraging. Unfortunately, what people will remember from this thread is your views.

I hope your tenant finds a professional LL next time, but also a more human one.

OP is running a business not a charity. Rent is due until keys are returned and agreed works completed by the tenant. It doesn't matter if it's a shop or a house or a garage, it's a business. Businesses run on profit, loss and budgeting, not heartstrings. Yes I am a LL and you won't find one tenant with a bad thing to say about their rent or the state of their house. I'm happy for them to redecorate (as long as they repaint white when they leave) and for them to have a couple of pets and even children! I make sure their electrics and gas are safe and they rent a lovely property but to keep it like this I need to budget accordingly. Money needs to be put aside for upgrading and preventative maintenance etc. OP is now short of £ purely by being a good LL and ensuring the tenant knows they're having to leave. A bank wouldn't let someone access without £, neither would a housing association or local authority.

WetLettuce2 · 11/02/2023 11:16

If she’s rented off you and paid for years, and found somewhere quickly when you’ve given her notice, I’d thank my lucky stars and buy her flowers and a bottle of wine ! Getting the exact rent to the exact day wouldn’t even cross my mind.

Golaz · 11/02/2023 11:29

WetLettuce2 · 11/02/2023 11:16

If she’s rented off you and paid for years, and found somewhere quickly when you’ve given her notice, I’d thank my lucky stars and buy her flowers and a bottle of wine ! Getting the exact rent to the exact day wouldn’t even cross my mind.

Again, while I respect my tenant and think she is a decent person to the limited extent I know her, she has certainly not done me any personal favours for which I consider myself indebted to her . I’m sure she would agree.

OP posts:
IloveRickyGervaisAndHisTeeth · 11/02/2023 11:32

Hydie · 10/02/2023 12:43

You prob shouldn't be a landlord

this

Golaz · 11/02/2023 11:33

IloveRickyGervaisAndHisTeeth · 11/02/2023 11:32

this

Thank you for your helpful input 🤣

OP posts:
WetLettuce2 · 11/02/2023 11:39

OP it’s not about personal favours, it’s about being decent in business dealings, which she has been.
You’re lucky that you still assume that’s a given.

DarkDarkNight · 11/02/2023 11:40

In a very difficult renter’s market she has found somewhere quickly and is leaving without fuss. I would have some grace and let the one month’s notice go.

Fofftwenty21 · 11/02/2023 11:42

I find it really concerning that a landlord doesn't know the basics regarding notice periods. I hope if you are a landlord again in future you learn and get proper advice before you take action.

747jumbo · 11/02/2023 11:47

It depends. 1 month notice takes it to 4 March
If her rental payment date is 1 of the month she might owe you until 1 April because she missed the 1 feb deadline for notice. BUT I'm not a lawyer and could be wrong. Check the tenancy agreement.
However - as others have said to be fair I'd take it until the day she hands back the keys - since you were the one that gave her notice. But that's just what I'd do.

If you force her to stay until April 'd be wary of her not being able then to take the new place - and you'll then be in a position of hoping she finds somewhere before you need to evict her.

Hankunamatata · 11/02/2023 11:47

You gave her notice so imo she doesn't need to give you a month's notice. So she owes you until the 18th.

Hankunamatata · 11/02/2023 11:49

Tbh your playing with fire if you insist she pays. She lay not end up moving out then you would be forced to go through eviction process which would take much longer

747jumbo · 11/02/2023 11:52

I agree OP isn't coming across very well. You don't know the basic law or your responsibilities, you are greedy, you are unfair rather than decent.

Another tenant might decide she doesn't want to leave, or clean, (have you protected the deposit in a proper scheme I wonder), and you'd really be up shit creek.

WombatChocolate · 11/02/2023 11:56

Golaz, it’s not about feeling ‘indebted’.

It doesn’t matter that you don’t know her very much, nor she know you really. It’s just about knowing what things to let go, in the context of a good rental relationship. It’s about seeing that going beyond the minimum of what the law says someone is entitled to, is good human and actually business behaviour. But this clearly doesn’t come naturally to you, as your instinct is to do the minimum and that you’d only put yourself our or cut some slack for people you know well.

The experienced LLs on here can see the nuances in situations and almost universally say they wouldn’t be charging beyond exit, even if they could and most, only up to the last rental date and would let the last couple of days go. These are experienced and profitable LLs. They aren’t people who are taken for mugs, but they can see that you take the bigger rental picture when making some of these decisions. They know from experience, that a tenant who goes easily and leaves the property clean when being served notice, isn’t something to be assumed and taken complacently, but nurtured through a bit of flexibility and probably generosity. These LLs know THEY benefit from behaving like this.

Tenant A is told they will need to pay rent up to the end of the notice period LL gave them, even if they move out sooner. Later LL looks into it more and realises that’s not right and grudgingly tells tenant they will pay until keys returned. Tenant feels a bit aggrieved about the stress she felt at thought of paying an extra 2 weeks or mo this rent when already having had to start paying rent on new place to secure it. This is felt strongly because the tenant had always paid rent on time and been Co-operative about finding somewhere to move to.Consequently, leaves lots of rubbish behind, some broken furniture and doesn’t clean the property. Only returns one set of keys and no forwarding address. Tenant and LL both feel pretty annoyed by whole thing.

Tenant B has received the same notice, but found a property that they can go to sooner. LL thanks them for their flexibility and tells them to pay their rent until the date they move out, but they will then refund them for the 5 days after the last rent date. Tenant feels pleased to know they will get a few quid back and feels they’ve been treated generously after they have been helpful to the LL. Consequently, actually moves out 2 days earlier than they said they would and leaves the place pristine, including having done a through tidy up in the garden. Tenant and LL both feel fairly positive about the whole thing, even with S21 being served.

Treating people with respect and being a bit flexible in the context of having received tens of thousands in rent, is usually good business sense, as well as being the right way to treat people, in terms of treating others as you’d like to be treated yourself. Hey ho!

Golaz · 11/02/2023 12:11

WetLettuce2 · 11/02/2023 11:39

OP it’s not about personal favours, it’s about being decent in business dealings, which she has been.
You’re lucky that you still assume that’s a given.

Yes I do agree this is valuable and definitely want (and have always wanted ) to be likewise decent

OP posts:
Xol · 11/02/2023 12:13

Golaz · 10/02/2023 13:51

This is really helpful thank you.

Thanks all. IABU so she pays rent until she gives the keys back. 👍🏻

If you go for that option, she could reasonably give the keys back on the 18th and not bother with cleaning.

Xol · 11/02/2023 12:14

Golaz · 11/02/2023 11:29

Again, while I respect my tenant and think she is a decent person to the limited extent I know her, she has certainly not done me any personal favours for which I consider myself indebted to her . I’m sure she would agree.

She kind of has done you a favour, because she could, entirely lawfully, have sat tight and waited for a court order.

Golaz · 11/02/2023 12:15

WombatChocolate · 11/02/2023 11:56

Golaz, it’s not about feeling ‘indebted’.

It doesn’t matter that you don’t know her very much, nor she know you really. It’s just about knowing what things to let go, in the context of a good rental relationship. It’s about seeing that going beyond the minimum of what the law says someone is entitled to, is good human and actually business behaviour. But this clearly doesn’t come naturally to you, as your instinct is to do the minimum and that you’d only put yourself our or cut some slack for people you know well.

The experienced LLs on here can see the nuances in situations and almost universally say they wouldn’t be charging beyond exit, even if they could and most, only up to the last rental date and would let the last couple of days go. These are experienced and profitable LLs. They aren’t people who are taken for mugs, but they can see that you take the bigger rental picture when making some of these decisions. They know from experience, that a tenant who goes easily and leaves the property clean when being served notice, isn’t something to be assumed and taken complacently, but nurtured through a bit of flexibility and probably generosity. These LLs know THEY benefit from behaving like this.

Tenant A is told they will need to pay rent up to the end of the notice period LL gave them, even if they move out sooner. Later LL looks into it more and realises that’s not right and grudgingly tells tenant they will pay until keys returned. Tenant feels a bit aggrieved about the stress she felt at thought of paying an extra 2 weeks or mo this rent when already having had to start paying rent on new place to secure it. This is felt strongly because the tenant had always paid rent on time and been Co-operative about finding somewhere to move to.Consequently, leaves lots of rubbish behind, some broken furniture and doesn’t clean the property. Only returns one set of keys and no forwarding address. Tenant and LL both feel pretty annoyed by whole thing.

Tenant B has received the same notice, but found a property that they can go to sooner. LL thanks them for their flexibility and tells them to pay their rent until the date they move out, but they will then refund them for the 5 days after the last rent date. Tenant feels pleased to know they will get a few quid back and feels they’ve been treated generously after they have been helpful to the LL. Consequently, actually moves out 2 days earlier than they said they would and leaves the place pristine, including having done a through tidy up in the garden. Tenant and LL both feel fairly positive about the whole thing, even with S21 being served.

Treating people with respect and being a bit flexible in the context of having received tens of thousands in rent, is usually good business sense, as well as being the right way to treat people, in terms of treating others as you’d like to be treated yourself. Hey ho!

The experienced LLs on here can see the nuances in situations

Some of you on here are hilariously self- congratulatory.

I could take this as “representing landlords”, but I recognise that would silly.

OP posts:
Golaz · 11/02/2023 12:18

Xol · 11/02/2023 12:14

She kind of has done you a favour, because she could, entirely lawfully, have sat tight and waited for a court order.

Yes she could have, but I still don’t think she has “done me a favour” by honouring the terms of the contract to which we both mutually and freely agreed.

I think she’s behaved in a decent way and def want to do the same in return, hence me posting for advice.

OP posts:
Cailin66 · 11/02/2023 12:22

Golaz · 10/02/2023 12:50

Oh no I was never suggesting she pay until April, but I thought she needed to give me one month of leaving earlier, so was going to suggest 4th March. It sounds like legally she technically owes me until 11th March.

So you ‘thought’ she has to give you notice. Despite it being you who served notice.

As regards legally or technically, which is it.