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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

How much does my tenant owe me?

521 replies

Golaz · 10/02/2023 12:25

Hi all,

I’ve had a tenant in my flat on for a few years. She’s been on a rolling contract since the first six months. She normally pays rent on the 11th of the month for the month ahead.

I gave her notice on 22nd January, that I would need the flat back by 16th April. (Under a rolling contract I need to give 2 months notice, but I wanted to let her know earlier rather than later, to give her some time to sort something).

On the 4th February she informed me she had found somewhere and would be moving out probably around the middle of February. I followed up today and asked if she had a date. She told me yes- she’s moving out on the 18th and will return on the 20th to clean the place.

How much rent does she owe me? She’s already paid until the 11th. She seems to think she only needs to pay for an extra week until the 18th , but in the rolling contract she’s supposed to give me one months notice so I feel like she should pay until the 4th March.

AIBU?

OP posts:
Golaz · 11/02/2023 09:49

Statusunknown · 11/02/2023 08:48

This is why no one likes landlords. They seem to just be all about the money.

You gave her notice and are turfing her out of her home, she's found somewhere new and is actually leaving the flat in a decent condition and wants to clean it and you want to charge her for this?

🙄

OP posts:
Schnooze · 11/02/2023 09:50

And I say that as a LL myself.

magratvonlipwig · 11/02/2023 09:50

Legally she owes you till 4th, but enforcing this might be difficult. Minimum she shoild pay till you get keys on 20th.
Maybe tell her the 1 month notice still stands but offer to split the difference and ask her to pay till 27th ?
The fact shes found something with no fuss and intends to clean is worth a weeks rent, or maybe even 2, if youd consider letting it go.
Good luck

Golaz · 11/02/2023 09:54

Sennelier1 · 11/02/2023 09:20

Are you serious? You gave her notice, so you ended the agreement. The only thing she has to do is to leave by the date agreed on. I'm in Belgium, and here if the owner gives notice there is no need at all for the renter to give notice too! She pays up untill the last day, be gratefull for a lodger who doesn't makes a scene about you ending the contract.

That’s interesting to hear about Belgium. That’s not where we live, however.

OP posts:
Golaz · 11/02/2023 09:57

Ndhdiwntbsivnwg · 11/02/2023 09:00

Your not unreasonable, however this is why tenants pay 1-2 months rent + deposit when moving in, to cover these costs. Has she done that?

The only thing I asked for was a deposit. But anyway , I’m not going to quibble over it, I don’t want to be unfair to her and it seems that the norm is not to insist on notice after a section 21.

OP posts:
BreatheAndFocus · 11/02/2023 10:01

Simple. The month’s notice she has to give is irrelevant here - because notice has already been given by you. She does not have to give you notice!

She pays up to the end of the day on which she returns the keys to you.

2Bornot · 11/02/2023 10:03

Yes, she owes you until the 4th.

Mumsnet hates landlords unfortunately, sorry so many people have been so rude.

Xol · 11/02/2023 10:04

Golaz · 10/02/2023 12:46

Thank you this is helpful

No, it isn't helpful, because it's incorrect. As you have given her notice, you can't demand that she give you notice. You could claim up to the 20th when she will presumably give the keys back, but is it worth it for two days' rent?

bellswithwhistles · 11/02/2023 10:09

Til the 20th at the very most.

You're not out of pocket - you're just not having someone else pay YOUR mortgage!!!

cracktheshutters · 11/02/2023 10:13

What does the rental agreement say about her giving notice - anyone can give an opinion on what is morally right, but what does the contract say? That’s the part that’s legally enforceable

viques · 11/02/2023 10:14

FourBoysAndAFeline · 10/02/2023 12:34

WTF?

You do realise that is not how life works dont you?

many people who rent properties to people have to pay the mortgage with the rent that take.

Since the OP has already said they are moving into the property themselves at the end of the summer I think we can assume that they are not reliant on any tenant to pay the mortgage for the five months from the original date for the current tenant to vacate.

C8H10N4O2 · 11/02/2023 10:26

HikingforScenery · 10/02/2023 14:06

Have i missed something? Did the OP state she’d owned the home “several years”?

Its in the OP. She has been letting the flat out to this tenant for several years.

When you choose to become a landlord (and yes it is a choice - nobody has to keep hold of a property they are not using) you choose to take responsibility for managing the roof over peoples' heads.

Its really not too much to ask that landlords behave with at least some degree of professionalism and business sense. If LLs don't understand their own contracts or want to deal with the responsibilities then pay for professional advice and management, rather than try to do it on the cheap on an anonymous forum.

WombatChocolate · 11/02/2023 10:26

A LL-tenant relationship is both a legal relationship but also a human one.

During a tenancy, especially a long one, it can take a number of twists and turns. There can be maintenance problems that arise, rent payment issues, contract issues and renewals. Tenants can turn out to be excellent and always pay on time, report any problems quickly and not raise unnecessary issues. Or they can stop paying, damage the property or not report naturally occurring maintenance issues. They can legally refuse to leave when given notice and hang onto the bitter end of the eviction process. Likewise, LLs can be excellent - providing a well-maintained property at the start, clear information about how to contact if a problem arises and fully understanding and meeting their legal obligations, whilst allowing the tenant full quiet enjoyment of the property and treating them like a sensible trusted adult. But equally, they can be disinterested and not respond to communication or to legitimate maintenance requests, to behave illegally, unreasonably hike rents or harass the tenants so the property does not feel like their home.

Besides the legal requirements, both tenants and LLs have a sense of the relationship between them. When a tenancy nears its end, whoever has instigated that, there’s often especial awareness of that. Finishing well and on good terms is better for everyone. For a tenant, it probably means good references, speedy deposit return and quite simply a feeling of being treated reasonably….that after they’ve paid tens of thousands in rent, the LL hasn’t wanted to haggle about a missing lightbulb, or a dusty interior in one cupboard. They’ve shown an understanding of the stresses of moving. However, too often, tenants feel that they’ve outlived their usefulness as a cash cow and feel aggrieved that an estate agent has wanted them to be ready to show prospective buyers around, or to vacate the property regularly for viewings. They can feel that requirements for moving out are unclear or shifting, and that expectations are unreasonable, with LLs wanting the property back in a better state than it was provided in, and that unreasonable deductions from the deposit are threatened or upheld, along with threats about references. Even if the tenancy has been good until this point, it can all leave a very sour taste.

Ultimately, as a LL, I think it’s vital to treat people right, with respect, consideration and empathy. And actually, most of this doesn’t cost anything financially at all. Simply understanding and acknowledging what some of the issues and difficulties can be for tenants, especially as tenancies end if instigated by the LL, is so important. A little bit of thought, communication and decency can make the difference between a truly horrible experience, and one which whilst still not pleasant is manageable and okay.

I take the view with my tenants, that as they come to move out, I will not be overly rigid. If they’ve paid their last rent and paid rent on time through the tenancy, and the property is emptied and left without damage, I have done really well. As others say, these things don’t always happen and part of being a LL is then picking up the pieces. If you don’t have to, you shouldn’t just think ‘that’s what I’m entitled to’ but recognise things have turned out well…because in a LLs career, there will be times when it doesn’t turn out well and you have to deal with it and be prepared for it.
So if a tenant asks about leaving a few days early or later, and that isn’t going to significantly impact me, I’d say ‘yes’ to accommodate them. If the house hasn’t been cleaned to professional standards but is looking cleanish after a long tenancy, I wouldn’t pursue that issue and likewise with the garden. If they were mean to be gone by midday but weren’t gone until 5pm, I’d let it go.

I’d expect to have to sound money on the property between tenancies….it’s just the cost of running the business, so it doesn’t actually matter if it’s not pristine. It’s not worth sweating the tiny things, and actually a couple of days rent is a tiny thing in the bigger picture of years of rent. If any LL is in a financial position where they can’t let a couple of days rent go, things are just too tight and they haven’t managed their resources well enough. It suggests that if the boiler had broken down a few weeks before, they would have struggled to find £3k to replace it. And that’s not acceptable. And screwing the last penny out of tenants for an extra day, or some lightbulbs or an hours cleaning, is also not right either. It’s when LLs are looking for where they can squeeze a few extra quid out if their tenant that I’m concerned…..some look to find something, anything in the maintenance to justify keeping £100, or to be as awakward as possible about the move out arrangements. Why? There is no need.

Cailin66 · 11/02/2023 10:30

Golaz · 10/02/2023 12:29

What do you mean “at best” you think I should let her stay for free ? I’m looking for grown up opinions here.

LL here . You only want opinions that agree with you. You served her notice, she happily has found a place to go, lucky you, she’s been a good tenant for years, even luckier you, she’s even coming back to clean, she sounds amazing.

She owes you rent up to the 20th max. And if it were me I’d leave it go altogether with rent paid up to the 11th. How’s that for a grown up opinion. Also can’t stand landlords who give the rest of us a bad name. You are trying it on to get more rent out of her despite your being the one to give her notice because it doesn’t suit you she’s left earlier than you anticipated. Do you seriously think any tenant can time their new tenancy to fit in with the end date you desired.

GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER · 11/02/2023 10:33

As a LL myself, yes, I do think YABU.

A friend, who’s selling a house (paid for, not by her, inherited) recently shocked me with a similar scenario - long term good tenant who she’s kicking out in order to sell, and is going to ‘insist!’ that he pays up to the final originally agreed date, not the ten days or so earlier one when he’s now planning to move out, having found somewhere else to live. She is def. not short of money and has 2 other properties owned outright.

I thought it mean and grasping to a good, trouble-free tenant whose home it has been for a few years.

RovenderKitt · 11/02/2023 10:33

Yes you should be grateful that she’s leaving without a fuss and offering to clean the place because I’ll guess you haven’t factored in clean up/ make good costs into your financials as a landlord so she actually will be saving you hundreds of pounds.

Zuma76 · 11/02/2023 10:36

You are being an awful lot of advice here that appears to be based on what people thing you should do rather than what you are legally entitled to do. This shouldn’t be an opportunity to blast the OP for the temerity of renting out a flat. I do t k is the answer but in most other contractual situations, if someone gives counter- notice, they should pay/ work until the end of the counter notice. They don’t get to leave at any point just because you’ve given them notice. Id negotiate with her

JJWT · 11/02/2023 10:36

... and then they get to own the house at the end. Which the tenant effectively bought for them. The whole thing stinks imo. I get charging rent but in the end if the rent covers more than the mortgage they bought you a house. Absolute greed and expoitation.

Led9519 · 11/02/2023 10:40

My landlord gave two months notice, I found a place and had to rent it and lose it. My landlord made me pay for the second month despite being moved saying I owed it to her and if I didn’t pay it’d be taken out of my deposit as non payment of rent. I rented two places together for 5 weeks.

C8H10N4O2 · 11/02/2023 10:41

Zuma76 · 11/02/2023 10:36

You are being an awful lot of advice here that appears to be based on what people thing you should do rather than what you are legally entitled to do. This shouldn’t be an opportunity to blast the OP for the temerity of renting out a flat. I do t k is the answer but in most other contractual situations, if someone gives counter- notice, they should pay/ work until the end of the counter notice. They don’t get to leave at any point just because you’ve given them notice. Id negotiate with her

The OP has not been "blasted" for being a landlord.

The criticisms are of someone who has chose to make an income from managing the roof over someone's head without having a bloody clue what they are doing legally or apparently being clear on their responsibilities. Who then instead of paying for professional advice or management decides to get "free" advice from an anonymous forum.

You will note that many of the criticisms are from LLs, sick of being tarred with the brush of hobby landlords.

JJWT · 11/02/2023 10:41

JJWT · 11/02/2023 10:36

... and then they get to own the house at the end. Which the tenant effectively bought for them. The whole thing stinks imo. I get charging rent but in the end if the rent covers more than the mortgage they bought you a house. Absolute greed and expoitation.

Urgh I selected reply instead of quote so this makes no sense! I was replying to the person who said "you do know the landlord has to pay the mortgage out of the rent"....

Dingdong90 · 11/02/2023 10:45

Yabu. You gave her notice and she's found somewhere else, she doesn't need to give you notice that she's moving out and I would say she is right that she only has to pay rent up until the day she moves out .

Spanielsarepainless · 11/02/2023 10:49

You gave her notice to leave. So she is! I would say she only owes from 11-20 February.

Golaz · 11/02/2023 10:50

Cailin66 · 11/02/2023 10:30

LL here . You only want opinions that agree with you. You served her notice, she happily has found a place to go, lucky you, she’s been a good tenant for years, even luckier you, she’s even coming back to clean, she sounds amazing.

She owes you rent up to the 20th max. And if it were me I’d leave it go altogether with rent paid up to the 11th. How’s that for a grown up opinion. Also can’t stand landlords who give the rest of us a bad name. You are trying it on to get more rent out of her despite your being the one to give her notice because it doesn’t suit you she’s left earlier than you anticipated. Do you seriously think any tenant can time their new tenancy to fit in with the end date you desired.

Why don’t you read the thread before jumping on your soapbox?

I’m not here to “represent” landlords. I owe you nothing. Talk about entitlement 🤣.

You know nothing of the circumstances, beyond the threadbare information I have provided.

I came her asking a simple question and looking for advice. I appreciate all who have contributed helpfully.

OP posts:
roarfeckingroarr · 11/02/2023 10:54

Isn't it depressing that everyone thinks the OP should count herself lucky that the tenant isn't causing more trouble and refusing to pay / clean / leave? No wonder so many landlords are selling up: