To think the adoration of Zelensky in the UK feels very wrong?

[WarWhatIsItGoodFor]

Exactly that. Why are UK politicians lapping it all up and hanging on to his every word? The laughter from MPs when he said he enjoyed English tea but now wants English planes… in what sense is that funny? He is wanting war planes to cause more bloodshed, death and destruction. I hope this doesn’t lead to Russian retaliation.

You have admitted yourself that you've counted every Soviet war death as Russian. Given that they weren't all Russian, and millions of them were Jewish, that can't really do anything but undermine your claim that they were Russian and that Russian losses were more severe.

It wouldn't have been any more sensible an argument if you were using accurate figures, but as you're not, it's worth spending a bit of time pointing and laughing at that specifically.

I'm from Baltic states coutry (former USSR).

I get that UK is far away from Ukraine and Russia and you have your own problems (not that we don't). But for Ukraine and many of the former USSR countries it's essential that Ukraine wins the war.

Do you know the feeling when you are discussing with your DP what happens when the russians would intrude your country? To stock cupboards with water, dry and canned food, candles, first aid supplies etc incase that happens? When your DP is thinking to which country and how (surrounded by sea or russians) to send you, his mother and sister with her children when that happens (highly unlikely attempt)? Knowing that he has to go to war? To move away from apartment in capital city to a house semi-near to capital (insane property prices and increasing euribor) so that you won't be bommed on the first day of invasion? To most likely live without electricity (what would you do when the power is amiss just for one day - no water, waste water drainage, in most cases no heating)?

Our country has supported Ukraine more than 1% of our GDP to military aid alone. So the war doesn't affect only Ukrainians. Many other countries are also living in fear. Let's not wait when russians will start a war with a NATO country - then UK soldiers would be fighting as well. Would you like that more that the current help Volodymyr Zelenskyyv is asking?

care to provide them from a reputable source? You haven't so far.

I won't even begin to hazard a guess as to why you are so hell bent on rewriting history. The Nazis lost on the Eastern front because the Russians fought a campaign of attrition. This is documented. The Russians paid by losing troops and civilians in greater numbers than any other country. They starved and froze to death in cities and they were churned in roads and battlefields.

The nazis were already decimated by the time the european allies got their act together on the western front due to this.

And in the east the usa sealed the deal by nuking loads of kiddies and office workers on their way to school/work.

I wish all the shills, bots, trolls and just plain fuckwits would come a bit more prepared. Not being arsed to look up Soviet war deaths by republic is plain lazy. They'd be better sport if they weren't so inept.

@Elaisa Thank you for your moving post.

I think that most people in the West of Europe don't have to think of this - the UK less than most, since it was never actually occupied.

For some reason Russia seems to fear and target the UK more than most other countries with hybrid warfare (and sometimes assassinations) but it's notable that it's the former USSR countries that hate the idea of Russian occupation the most.

What's really strange in Hungary. Hungarians fought like hell for freedom. And now it's in Russia's pocket.

Im interested in accuracy and not propaganda-fed lies. You might want to try the same.

As said, provably, by 1944 it was mostly Ukrainians fighting Russia's battles for Russia.

As for the US bombing of Japan, it was a terrible thing and must never be repeated. At the time no one really understood what would happen. Now we do.

Why does Putin keep threatening nuclear bombs, @PitYerTapOan? don't you think you should try to worry about the only world leader to threaten using nukes since we saw the reality of what they do?

By the way, I'm still waiting for your views on an army that gives its soldiers Viagra so they can rape the civilians better.

Oh yea, it wasn't once that Putin threatened it. It's over, and over, and over and over.

Remember that it's Russia invading a land it guarenteed independence too.

Ukraine gave its nuclear bombs to Russia on the guarentee by Russia of Ukrainian independence

See how much Russia's word is worth?

Read the terms of the Lisbon agreement 1994.
Explains why we (The UK) and the USA HAVE to help Ukraine.
Although Russia certainly have not upheld their part.

Yes, you failing to back up your arguments because you mixed up the USSR and Russia is such an own. So independent and visionary of you.

PitYerTapOan
Russia suffered greater loss of life than any other nation bar none. Way more than the Jewish total.

Are you including the Russians Stalin murdered during and in the immediate aftermath of WWII, including the 7,000,000 Ukrainians he deliberately starved to death? And all the Kulaks? My life, you really are ignorant.

Zelensky's (Jewish) grandfather, Seymon, was a Colonel in the Red Army. Seymon's father and 3 brothers were killed in the Holocaust. I think any poster prattling about the Azov battalion needs to remember that and have a think about the Wagner group and the numerous other far Right forces within Russia.

Can't believe a tankie on here had the nerve to address someone else as a "fud" (horrible word). Unreal.

And some even participated in the Volhynia massacre, the fact that I don't think can be attributed to their dislike of the Russians.

Does that make me feel less sympathetic to their fight now? Absolutely not, but I am not going to pretend that this conflict is anything like the battle between good and evil some people love to think it is.

It is a massive power play where, I suspect, huge personal fortunes are at stake and we all are being played along.

Oh and the estimated losses that would have resulted from a land invasion of Japan are fairly conservatively calculated at over a million in total. Lots of them "kiddies" at Hiroshima and elsewhere.

What happened was terrible, but war is. Ask the citizens of Ukraine.

People seem to think the conflict can't be multiple things.

It can be and is a war where one side are in the wrong and the other in the right, where the West are acting in our own interests rather than because the Ukrainians happen to be the ones with the moral high ground, where Zelensky is an incredible wartime leader as well as a dodgy fucker whose financial affairs were in the Pandora Papers, where there will no doubt be payback expected for the West's help once this is over... it isn't either/or.

And some even participated in the Volhynia massacre, the fact that I don't think can be attributed to their dislike of the Russians.

Frankly, agreed with that.

It is a massive power play where, I suspect, huge personal fortunes are at stake and we all are being played along.

I suspect, having followed a fair bit of stuff, some Ukrainian fortunes are being made. That's why there are HUGE sweep-cleans going on now. But they won't catch everything; still, things will be far better.

Battled between good and evil are rather simplistic to be honest. But when a previously-peaceful land is invaded and tens of thousands / 125,000+ civilians are killed, plus god knows how many more wounded or dying from exposure / lack of medical treatment ... it really is very clear who is in the wrong. It's the invader.

The US led the 1st Iraq war because Iraq under Saddam invaded Kuwait. Kuwait asked for help. There was reason to go to war.

The 2nd Iraq was was based on a false and wrong premise. The war was wrong, wrong, wrong and hundreds of thousands died. I don't believe the Afghan war was at all justified either.

In this case the war is also a war of aggression. Russia invaded Crimea, it funded conflict and war in Donbas and then it invaded all of Ukraine.

There are endless comparisons drawn between Nazi Germany and Russia under Putin. I don't think all are specious but the fact is that Germany was a Western democracy that had been put under tremendous financial pressure after WW1. This created a gap where the Right rose, with ready, catastrophic answers to all the ills.

Russia has never in its long history had a democratic system that actually worked ( best efforts lasted about 10 minutes) I've heard repeatedly "Oh Russia likes a strong leader", like they are all a bunch of children without discernment. I don't believe that and hope that they can one day establish the government they deserve, without the likes of Putin, Stalin and numerous Tsars of varying sanity and effectiveness.

Yeah, I don't believe him either.

His signature isn't worth the paper it's written on.

Bit of a problem for anyone signing a peace treaty with him.

PitYerTapOan was confirmed by Mumsnet just now as a previously banned poster.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar FWIW I've found yours and a couple of others' posts on this thread really insightful.

sadieshavingashindig · Today 23:33
ReleaseTheDucksOfWar FWIW I've found yours and a couple of others' posts on this thread really insightful.

They certainly are.

Thank you very much :)

the rather boring excess of posted (verifiable) facts is because it's the only way I've found of counteracting the less-than-good faith posters. I know it's a bit OTT ! :)

I truly think that Ukraine does and has had some severe problems. But none of that justifies what's going on, and it really seems that Russia is trying hard to interfere in the UK, in democracy generally and ... the Kremlin spreads destruction.

In all this destruction, the greatest things that've come out of it is 1) democracies can pull together when it counts 2) Ukraine's stubborn, resourceful nature is extraordinary and 3) education with an emphasis on critical thinking and the value of pulling together is vital. Vital, vital.