To think the adoration of Zelensky in the UK feels very wrong?

[WarWhatIsItGoodFor]

Exactly that. Why are UK politicians lapping it all up and hanging on to his every word? The laughter from MPs when he said he enjoyed English tea but now wants English planes… in what sense is that funny? He is wanting war planes to cause more bloodshed, death and destruction. I hope this doesn’t lead to Russian retaliation.

It is. Zelenskyy is the heir in 2019 from a government that was deposed by external money and "revolutionaries for the land" in 2014. He never disbanded the Azov regiment, he has incorporated it into a new guard in Ukraine.

Ukraine has always been the country that NATO (and NATO is controlled by the US) to get close to Russia and their unlimited natural resources. I will say it again: wars are not fought on principles like human rights or freedom. Wars are fought to control global resources.

There was a huge issue in the German press about sending Leopard tanks to Ukraine that will cross Russian borders. There are too many connotations with WWII about German tanks fighting again in Russia.

By that reckoning, all governments in Ukraine are heirs of the Russian government – which has indeed put its own external money and other resources into Ukrainian elections.

There are too many connotations with WWII about German tanks fighting again in Russia.

There are certainly some Germans who've trotted that argument out, yes. I thought this response dealt very effectively with those sentiments. Dmitry Grozoubinsky is himself Jewish and Ukrainian born.

twitter.com/DmitryOpines/status/1618521580111556608

For anyone who can't access it, this is what he said:

Also could Germans fucking spare me the "I'm historically uncomfortable with our tanks in Eastern Europe."

If your role in the 1930's and 40's consisted solely of peacefully transferring tanks to Poland to resist an invasion from Stalin you wouldn't still be apologising in 23.

Also, if you're not comfortable with German tanks being used in this incredibly clear cut example of good versus evil, maybe stop building and exporting tanks?
Did you think Rhinemetal was making exclusively school buses?!

If the Jewish President of Ukraine doesn't see a Leopard transfer as evoking Blitzkrieg and the 3rd Reich then you're probably in the clear, lads.

Could you offer a source for the claim that Germany's Leopard tanks will be going into Russia?

You may be right, of course, but so much care has been taken about forbidding other military equipment from NATO nations from being used inside Russian borders, IIRC, that it would be a major change if the tanks were permitted to enter Russia.

Of course, Putin recently declared he'd moved Russian borders to be well inside Ukraine. So by Putin's reckoning, a tank can "cross Russian borders" without switching its engine on...

www.npr.org/2023/01/25/1150759498/germany-leopard-2-tanks-ukraine

Nothing in that link mentions crossing Russian borders. The Leopard 2s are only for Ukraine.

A bit of a Freudian slip there? You do know Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk are all illegal occupations by Russia, yes? Better adjust your filters a little higher.

That's true. The Assad regime supported by Russia killed hundreds and perhaps thousands by chemical attacks.

The US doesn't use chemical weopons now after the outrage. Assad and Russia still do

Since the start of uprisings across Syria in 2011,Syrian Arab Armed Forces and pro-Assad paramilitary forces have been implicated in more than 300 chemical attacks in Syria.[5][6]

But you still don't say how the Russian invasion of Ukraine is justified, nor how it's okay that Russian troops were issued viagra so they could rape more, by the UN report.

It's a war. Ukrainian troops have crossed Russian borders and with the arrival of tanks, they will cross again. The tanks will not only be used to defend positions but to attack as well. It's the reason the Germans didn't want to send their tanks in the first place.

That article matches what I know: Leopard tanks are being sent into Ukraine.

Even the Russian government spokesmen in that article are not suggesting the tanks will enter Russia.

That article also makes a comment about weaponry in general, which fits with what I said previously:

Berlin is also hesitant to supply arms that would enable Kyiv to carry out attacks on Russian soil

And also
the German government legally has the final say over how and where the tanks are used

The NATO countries are being quite fussy about where their weapons are used, and seem very keen to prevent them being used in Russia. IIRC, when the long-range weapon HIMARS was supplied, Ukraine had to sign an undertaking not to fire it into Russia.

blueshoes You ask whether my first language is English. Yes, it is. I am in my 70s and was born in London of English parents. Why do you ask this question?

In further response to your interrogation, I have always lived in the UK and took part in the huge demonstration against the Iraq invasion. Again, why do you ask this question?

This is not an 'interrogation' and I am not the KGB.

As for your answers, if you say so.

@ellyeth I don't understand how you can have been so (justifiably) opposed to the Iraq war and yet feel that we should just let Putin have large chunks of the Ukraine?

@Alondra re tanks and crossing Russian borders: let's not forget who initially invaded whom, shall we?

It's interesting that going on the big antiwar march only got mentioned when I disclosed my involvement in various protests and refuted the nonsense claim about media at that time.

hehe

perhaps Ellyeth is KGB? frivolously

😌 Definite, a Freudian slip. I disagree with you about Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk, they've always wanted to be Russian and held referendums won by huge majorities which Ukraine considered illegal and never recognised. They've been territories in an effective civil war since Ukraine independence. This is where the Azov regiment, its brutality, have been infamous for in these regions. Their population have been brutally repressed for supporting their Russian ancestry.

But you won't read anything about it in our newspapers or hear it on TV..

And although NATO countries have been so cautious in trying to make sure their weapons aren't used in Russia, I do have to roll my eyes at the belief expressed here, that they might be.

This time last year, Russia was not afraid of being invaded by Ukraine. And there were no German Leopard 2 tanks in Ukraine.

Now, thanks to master strategist Darth Putin, Russia supposedly is afraid of being invaded by Ukraine. And Ukraine is about to have the weapons that will supposedly be used to do it.

If Putin genuinely believes Russia is going to be invaded using this kit (that has not even arrived in Ukraine), perhaps now would be a good time for him to withdraw from Ukraine. Problem solved.

@Alondra which referendums would those be? Surely not those held after Russia annexed/invaded Crimea, Donetsk, Luhansk etc?

But you won't read anything about it in our newspapers or hear it on TV.

And yet a poster above was able to link to an article in "our newspapers" about the Azov battalion. Perhaps it wasn't what you wanted to read about them.

Essentially that Ukraine's done a lot of work to clean them up.

Do svidanya, OP - nice try, though.

Sorry, when did Ukrainian troops cross Russian borders? I seem to have missed that.

Ah, Berlusconi shares your opinion. Well done, friends of Putin.

I disagree with you about Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk, they've always wanted to be Russian

Regarding Donetsk and Luhansk, would those be the referenda that no govt has recognised as valid, because Russia put their fingers on the scales and then their hands and then a whole truck load of bricks?

The results of the separatist referendums were not officially recognised by any government, including those of Ukraine, the United States, and the countries of the European Union[6] The Ukrainian government said that the referendum was illegal, and a number of nations—such as Germany, the United States, France, and Britain—said that the referendum was unconstitutional and lacked legitimacy.

It's very difficult to take any referenda seriously when the political system is so utterly corrupt

Transparency International stated in 2022, "Corruption is endemic in Russia" and assigned it the lowest score of any European country in their Corruption Perceptions Index for 2021.

On another thread there is an excellent explainer of the Azov battalion and their history from MMBaranova, who I think is Ukrainian by birth and certainly has close family in Ukraine and Russia (MMB, apologies if haven't remembered you exactly correctly).

First post in series starts:
MMBaranova · 18/05/2022 00:02
The Azov Issue
Back in 2012 I was doing some research on extreme right Russian individuals and groups.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/4547874-ukraine-invasion-part-25?page=34&reply=117307820