To think the adoration of Zelensky in the UK feels very wrong?

[WarWhatIsItGoodFor]

Exactly that. Why are UK politicians lapping it all up and hanging on to his every word? The laughter from MPs when he said he enjoyed English tea but now wants English planes… in what sense is that funny? He is wanting war planes to cause more bloodshed, death and destruction. I hope this doesn’t lead to Russian retaliation.

Yep.

I think people have this idea that it'd just be him pressing a button and kaboom. But the term Mutually Assured Destruction arose for a reason. It's not like conventional warfare where Putin and the elites can just shove other people's kids in the meat grinder while their own loved ones are kept safely out of the way. Nuclear weapons involve elites putting their own heads and those of their loved ones on the block too. They tend not to like that.

Ukraine already sells its children to western Europe and the usa.

Russia talks about nuclear weapons because through the cold war and beyond it's had thousands of nuclear weapons systems aimed at it by the only country in the world that has used nuclear weapons on a civilian population. Twice. It reflects the bogeyman we hold over it back to us.

Nor quite sure of the relevance to what I presume is the frequency of surrogacy in prewar Ukraine: do you think that justifies the forced deportations, then? Is there a limit, a formula? Tell us more.

As for the second, the Russian state and her representatives can talk about nukes all they want. Whevs. The important point is that they've demonstrated that it's no more than hot air.

That's for the negotiable detail. There's room enough to discuss, which is pretty crucial - it means it's possible.

Fucking awful for anyone directly affected.

Maybe zelensky should have thought about that. (I wouldn't expect putin to, he's never said he was a nice guy.)

Is there a limit, a formula?

No.

As for the second, the Russian state and her representatives can talk about nukes all they want. Whevs. The important point is that they've demonstrated that it's no more than hot air.

Agreed. Which is why we need to stop pissing our pants like he's some great satan or even Hitler. It's rhetoric. That the USA handed to him on a plate when they killed all those kiddies in Hiroshima.

I wouldn't expect putin to, he's never said he was a nice guy.

Which brings us back to, what's the compromise you'd like Putin to make?

Your expectations of him seem pretty low, so do you expect him to compromise at all? Or to stick to his promises if he appeared to compromise?

Well he'll pull out of all out war with Ukraine. That's quite a big deal isn't it? One that everyone wants? The rest of the world was happy enough with fighting and atrocities being confined to the donbas prior to twelve months ago. Sure they'd be grand for that again.

It's just it looks like you're expecting all the compromising to be done by Ukraine.

So Russia loses nothing (well, except all the people it's killed), and has gained something it wants. Waits two years and goes at it again.

Which is precisely the strategy it's been using for years. Why do you think Russia's other neighbours are so scared?

No.

So what was your point, then?

Agreed. Which is why we need to stop pissing our pants like he's some great satan or even Hitler. It's rhetoric. That the USA handed to him on a plate when they killed all those kiddies in Hiroshima.

Well, he's like Hitler in that they're both an example of appeasement not working. But yes, the pants pissing is stupid and the nuclear stuff is rhetoric only. Hitler was dead well before Hiroshima, though.

PitYerTapOan
Well he'll pull out of all out war with Ukraine.

For a few months, or even as much as a year.... Maybe. If he really reckons that he can't rearm while his army goes on killing and torturing civilians.

"Naive you are if you believe life favours those who are naive."

I'm just a twat on a talkboard, not a UN negotiator. Going back from the Greater Russia thing (even though it was never going to happen) looks like a climbdown, axing komoloisky (but keeping the money) and taking Azov off the payroll (but somehow funnelling to them, doubtless) also looks like a climbdown, so job done.

Putin and Russia both have other fish to fry.

It's just disgusting that people are actually dying for this bloated, grotesque power play . Also ridiculous that so many people in economically connected countries like the UK see it as a good vs evil matter.

Yes, if there were an option that involved Russia genuinely pulling out of all war in Ukraine, as opposed to taking a temporary hiatus to rearm then coming back doing more of same, the situation would be quite different. There isn't. Nobody who fails to understand this has any chance of coming up with a sensible analysis.

Putin doesn't want to drag it out. He has other things to concentrate on, specifically building up this new banking system with China. And China has its own international issues, plus is already making restive statements towards Russia over this prolonged war.

So what is the alternative solution to resisting Putin's bloated, grotesque power play?

He was allowed to seize Crimea illegally, and occupy it, without suffering any particular penalty. And rather than saying "goody, that's done", he waited a few years and then tried to seize the whole of the rest of Ukraine illegally and occupy it.

Why should anyone think that if he's allowed to have any or all of Ukraine, he won't be back in a couple of years for another bite at the pie?

I do not see this as a good versus evil matter. I see it as a not-too-horrible versus utterly repulsive matter. As a trying-to-improve versus doubling-down-on-inhumanity matter.

I don't reward animals or children for behaving badly....

wtf are you on about? Ukraine sells its children to western Europe and the USA?

been taking something illegal, have you?

You haven't been listening to him have you?

Might explain your bizarre posts

Azov cleaned its act up quite some time ago. As you should know, if you've been following it. Now it's mainstream and it's Russia has the Nazi problems - and frankly, the problem with Nazism was fascism, and Russia is WAY worse about that.

In the the West the Nazis are remembered for the war and the Holocaust. The RUssians remember the Nazis because they invaded (after the Nazis broke the peace pact that both nations signed, Russia was just fine with the Nazis before that).

Russia never mentions the 6million Jewish people killed. They only care that they were invaded.

Now they do the invading - Chechnya, twice. South Ossetia. Ukraine, 2014 and 2022.

With their deliberate programs of rape and murder.

www.forbes.com/sites/ewelinaochab/2022/10/14/united-nations-rape-is-part-of-russias-military-strategy/

Of course Putin doesn't want to drag it out. He was hoping to have this done in weeks, and the continued existence of an independent Ukraine is a humiliating reminder of his failure. But the reality is that this is the third land war in Europe he's started in under 15 years, so the idea that he's going to give up and lose interest if he's once again appeased is fanciful. The invasion itself has been a logic fail from the first day, so the argument that Putin won't want to do something because he'd be better off not doing it clearly doesn't apply.

I've been listening to him but I don't believe him.

I'm not sure why you do. I'd wager most russians don't.

wtf are you on about? Ukraine sells its children to western Europe and the USA?

Yes, in quite large numbers. It caused something of a crisis when global restrictions bit at the beginning of 2020 - all those babies with nowhere to go.

Of course it matters what is right and wrong.

And if you bothered to look up what's been said, Ukraine is very strongly improving its eradication of corruption. Russia is sinking deeper and deeper and deeper into it. Did you know that Russian governors no longer have to submit their accounts and expenses for assessment? That was introduced about 3 weeks ago.

Whereas Ukraine has been examining hundreds and hundreds of state employees and firing the corrupt ones.

Your agenda is very obvious, since you ignore the improvements in Ukraine and come up with crap like "it doenst matter what is right and wrong".

Unless you support breaking the law, like oh, illegal invasions, deliberately targetting civilians and issuing Viagra so Russian soldiers can rape more women.

Rape apologist are you?

The attempts at argument are definitely becoming more glue sniffy as the evening progresses.

Russia never mentions the 6million Jewish people killed. They only care that they were invaded.

Meh. Russia suffered greater loss of life than any other nation bar none. Way more than the Jewish total. So yeah they care about that. And they know what third Reich Nazis are. Arguably more so than all the bozos in the UK making anniversary bunting and talking about spirit of the blitz at every drop of a hat.

Stalin may have briefly flirted with Hitler. So did we, if you remember. But russia throwing wave after wave of young boys to the Nazi war machine in the middle of an arctic winter was what turned the eventual fortune of WWII when Hitler lost the eastern front.

Neo nazis are a problem throughout russia, former russia and slavic states generally. It is a massive deal. The roots of the loose movement as it is now started in the wake of the breakup of Yugoslavia (the European war no fucker remembers) . It's grown substantially in scale and reach since then. All these disaffected white boys that some fucking shit state somewhere is happy to hand guns to. Yes including russia.

But - and this is quite crucial - Ukraine is the only country that has actual avowed neo nazis on its payroll. The Ukrainian state employs neo nazis, quite openly. Azov hasn't cleaned up its act. It can't. Its purpose is neo nazism and white supremacy and that's what it recruits in.

And more and more obvious.

If you don't know much about the war, you don't come up with this so-called 'researched' crap.

If you post in good faith, you examine the claims, research both sides of them (to a lesser or greater extent) and then balance the results.

When you come up with nothing but anti-Ukraine crap that is part lies, a bigger part distortion and completely negate all the evidence that Ukraine is working to improve itself while ignoring the gigantic problems in Russia and the fact that Russia is invading^..... you've got an agenda, and it's generally a deeply dishonest one.