To think the adoration of Zelensky in the UK feels very wrong?

[WarWhatIsItGoodFor]

Exactly that. Why are UK politicians lapping it all up and hanging on to his every word? The laughter from MPs when he said he enjoyed English tea but now wants English planes… in what sense is that funny? He is wanting war planes to cause more bloodshed, death and destruction. I hope this doesn’t lead to Russian retaliation.

He only wants to cause bloodshed of invading Russians that are raping and murdering his fellow citizens .

Don't invade, don't get killed. I hope the whole western works provides more tanks, planes and weapons.

@Jonnywishbone

he other absolutely galling thing about this, is that having dangled the carrot of NATO membership to the Ukrainians which led to this situation, when the Ukraine did get invaded we didn't provide military support and pretty much left them to it with a few weapons and some training. We basically caused a fight and then walked away leaving them to beat each other up.

Pardon?... "a few weapons"?

Start with NLAW, Javelin, move through a whole range of Surface to Air Missile systems from Stinger and Starstreak up to AMRAAM/HAWK/IRIS-T, various brands of Self Propelled Guns, Armoured personnel carriers and other armoured fighting vehicles , Air to Surface weaponry such as HARM, surface to surface systems such as HIMARS, Ammunition by the multiple of tonnes. Main Battle Tanks on the way.......probably a least some intelligence being provided as well....

In short in terms of ordnance just about everything appears to have been appropriate...that doesn't sound like walking away to me.

@scatterolight "He's a megalomaniacal shortarsed dickhead dragging his poor people through endless bloodshed"

Excellent description of Putin.

@ReleaseTheDucksOfWar
I have posted them before. There is loads of it. If you want to look, which you won't, you can find detailed reports. If you dont know about it it shows you know little about Ukraine pre the invasion. Our papers use to report it plus the concerns of the links between Ukraine far right and the UK far right. But I know we rewrite history now, people will pretend all was well in Ukraine, no corruption and everybody was treated fairly.

www.amnesty.org/en/location/europe-and-central-asia/ukraine/report-ukraine/

"Impunity for torture and other ill-treatment in general remained endemic. Investigations into more recent allegations remained slow and often ineffective. The Prosecutor General’s Office (PGO) reported opening 79 new cases of alleged torture and 1,918 of alleged abuse of authority by law enforcement officers, from January to December, resulting in 51 individuals being charged with relevant crimes."
"In March, the PGO reported that the European Court of Human Rights (ECtHR) had to date ruled in the applicants’ favour, and against Ukraine, in 115 cases regarding conditions of detention amounting to torture or other ill-treatment, of which 71 under the supervision of the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe remained unaddressed; 120 cases were awaiting a decision."

I can't link to this but it is the US state dept on Ukraine 2020 "Significant human rights issues included: unlawful or arbitrary killing; torture and cases of cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment of detainees by law enforcement personnel; harsh and life-threatening conditions in prisons and detention centers; arbitrary arrest or detention; serious problems with the independence of the judiciary;"

@Iseered wouldn't it be interesting to see what the organisations you have listed have to say about Russia?

And anyway, none of that is a valid reason to invade a sovereign independent nation, nor for that nation to just roll over and accept it. Not even in Botland and Shillvania.

@Iseered

Here's the 2021 Amnesty report on the Russian Federation

www.amnesty.org/en/location/europe-and-central-asia/russian-federation/report-russian-federation/

Fill your boots.

A concern for human rights, and simultaneously a cheer leader for the restoration of the Russian Empire, which you may not be aware is a catastrophe for human rights.
That's a very ironic look you re sporting there.

Totally. My point proven. Ukraine is shit Russia is shit, they are both corrupt and they have been fighting each other for years. I don't want any part of their war or to destroy our economy supporting it. It's time for negotiation.

But yet the (appalling, terrible, according to you) Ukraine didn't invade (the appalling, terrible) Russia last year.

You think Putin is open to negotiation? Risible.

But you said there were reports from prior to the Russian invasion

That was 2014.

MysteryBelle
Everything I said in my post is not my opinion but facts.

Bwahhahhahhahhah!

"A former literal clown tippy toeing in high heels and tights acting the fool is now raking in billions and billions as the president of a country, a country whose government just happened to have taken bribes to hide Biden’s crime family dealings, or else, as Biden threatened publicly to withhold aid if investigator wasn’t called off. Interesting coincidence.

Billions and billions, where exactly are those billions going, they don’t seem to have to provide accountability to the masses who are funding them."

is what you wrote.

I have read more concentrated bunkum, but only very rarely and only when researching Goebbels.

mmhmm.

Would you care to address my point that the Russians have done a LOT LOT worse and a LOT LOT MORE?

Because right now you're providing a veyr one sided account of things. So one-sided it's a very false picture.

Isn't it funny how peace negotiations now would mean Ukraine giving up land? And playing right into Putin's hands?

Enlightened self interest means supporting Ukraine, because Putin's said he's not going to stop there.

He is the leader of a country that is at war with Russia, started by Russia. If you read the accounts of the terrible acts of violence, torture, rape & murder being inflicted on the women & children of Ukraine, maybe you would not be speaking of Zelensky wanting war planes to cause bloodshed. That's the opposite of what he wants them for. He wants them to attempt to end the war. If Russia retaliates, the rest of the world will need to take action. One country cannot invade & partition another, Hitler tried this.

As others have said, claiming that people are bots, shills and useful idiots is a cheap and stupid way of making your point.

There have throughout history been "useful idiots" - and at least on some occasions they have been re-stating mainstream opinion, which later turned out to be misplaced.

did you look at the evidence upthread that indeed, Prigozhin and Russia do have huge bot farms and that the UK govt says that shills are targetting well known forums?

Some people will be genuine but sadly, a good number aren't.

Interesting little theme emerging from the SPAG challenged new posters bots that the way forward is negotiation.

Putin must be getting desperate.

What about United Nations peace talks? Ultimately this will have to be resolved by talking and the Government, EU & other world leaders should be demanding & facilitating this.

@Iseered

Just to help you understand the relative levels of cruelty and torture:

www.reuters.com/world/un-finds-russia-responsible-vast-majority-potential-war-crimes-ukraine-2022-10-18/

ZURICH, Oct 18 (Reuters) - A United Nations commission found Russian forces were responsible for the "vast majority" of human rights violations in the early weeks of the war in Ukraine, including attacks on civilians that were potential war crimes.

In a report on events in four northern provinces, the Independent International Commission of Inquiry on Ukraine found that Russian forces had indiscriminately shelled areas they were trying to capture and "attacked civilians trying to flee".

It also found abuses committed by Ukraine, including two cases of people who were out of action who were shot, wounded or tortured.

www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/12/un-report-details-summary-executions-civilians-russian-troops-northern
KYIV (7 December 2022) – In the initial weeks of the invasion of Ukraine, Russian armed forces summarily executed or carried out attacks on individuals leading to the deaths of hundreds of civilians, the Head of the UN Human Rights Monitoring Mission in Ukraine, Matilda Bogner said today. A UN Human Rights report based on the work of the Mission details how Russian troops killed civilians in Ukrainian towns and villages across the Kyiv, Chernihiv and Sumy regions of Ukraine from 24 February until 6 April 2022.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_violence_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine

UN envoy Pramila Patten, the Special Representative of the Secretary-General on Sexual Violence in Conflict, stated "When women are held for days and raped, when you start to rape little boys and men, when you see a series of genital mutilations, when you hear women testify about Russian soldiers equipped with Viagra, it’s clearly a military strategy."[13][14][15] They stated the cases currently reported are the "tip of the iceberg".[16] Ukraine's prosecutor general commented that acts of sexual violence is massively under reported due to the difficulty investigators faced in Russian occupied areas and the fear and shame experienced by survivors, "To investigate sexual crimes on the occupied territory, when we are still in the military conflict, is very hard,” said Ukraine’s prosecutor general, Iryna Venediktova. “It’s very difficult, because the victims are actually scared."[17][18]
Extent of sexual violence
Reports of sexual violence against women, men, and children have been widespread in areas liberated from Russian occupation.

It's delicious to observe.

But there are loads of bits and shills, it is common knowledge that Russia pretty much invented this form of information warfare. So on that basis there are probably a few on this thread. There's some bizarre posts on this thread for sure that aren't normal by any stretch.

Putin is a maniac who invaded a country, and is now possibly after Moldova, and the Ukrainians are unbelievable - strong, brave, won't stop.

What else is there to say?

All of the people who've made this claim have completely failed to deal with the reality that there are bots, people being paid by the Russian state, and that this has been a feature of the internet for several years. That's not to say that any specific individual in a particular thread is necessarily one of those, but they certainly exist. It follows that because you don't acknowledge this, your criticism falls well below relevance.

I honestly can't remember: did the Vietnam war end around a table? I have a sort of vague memory of people fleeing in helicopters as a the capital city was taken by the other side. I suspect it was a defeat, not a negotiated peace.

See also Persian Gulf War, Banana Wars, WWI, WWII, Russian Civil War, Dominican Civil War, Cambodian Civil War... I am unsure about the invasion of Grenada: does setting up an election for a new government count as around a table?

@BillyNighysWife 🤣🤣🤣🤣