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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think the adoration of Zelensky in the UK feels very wrong?

713 replies

WarWhatIsItGoodFor · 08/02/2023 21:18

Exactly that. Why are UK politicians lapping it all up and hanging on to his every word? The laughter from MPs when he said he enjoyed English tea but now wants English planes… in what sense is that funny? He is wanting war planes to cause more bloodshed, death and destruction. I hope this doesn’t lead to Russian retaliation.

OP posts:
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6
MasterBeth · 09/02/2023 13:22

Iseered · 09/02/2023 12:14

We should not be escalating this war. It's being going on for years and no way should they get planes. Too long to write it all here but on the one hand we are told Russia always planned to take over the world/the West/3rd World War blah blah whilst simultaneously by the same people being told Russia are so crap they can't hold a few Ukraine regions. Laughable.
We are supposed to be crying for corrupt Ukrainian far right oligarchs, who made their money illegally through selling/controlling ex Russian state assets, when Russia blows up their power stations and then cheer leading them as they sue Russia. No.
All the while freezing in our homes whilst destroying our economy. No thanks not my war.
Meanwhile children starve to death and women's lives are destroyed in Afghanistan who we abandoned.

No, I am crying for innocent Ukraine citizens being bombed from their homes by the invading Russian army.

Daftasabroom · 09/02/2023 13:24

Boshi · 09/02/2023 10:44

Have a look at this image and think about why Russia would have been triggered by Ukraine trying to join NATO. To think Ukraine invited this war on themselves is a valid opinion, that they would have been better trying to negotiate with Russia than trying to join NATO.

Russia does not want NATO on its borders and it has warned Ukraine about the consequences. Fair enough Ukraine is a sovereign nation and decided to press ahead but equally Russia decided they did not want NATO on their borders. Hence, war. I’m not coming down on either side, both are corrupt countries but I do find Zelensky essentially guilt tripping the west to be a bit disingenuous when you look at how and why the war began.

Have a look at your image. If Putin is successful in his invasion of Ukraine he goes from having little border with NATO to, guess what? A big border with NATO. It's daft for either Putin or yourself to justify the invasion of Ukraine on the basis of NATO borders.

The USSR had borders with NATO for decades.

If Ukraine falls so will Moldova. Belarus will apply to join the Russian Federation. Then Estonia will be invaded. Latvia and Lithuania would be obvious candidates but they are members of NATO.

NATO only poses a threat to Putin if he attacks a NATO member. He knows this.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 09/02/2023 13:26

Iseered · 09/02/2023 12:43

If you read the UN reports (before Russia invaded) you would see that Ukrainian soldiers were murderers, criminals, rapists and torturers if you were the wrong kind of Ukrainian.

Uh huh, link to reports?

Will you also link the reports that show just how far Ukraine has gone to clean up its act?

Will you link the reports over the Russian occupation of Bucha, Mariupol, Izyum, and the other freed settlements?

Because I'm sure that some Ukrainians aren't perfect (and who governed Ukraine until very very recently and forced its culture on the people, the ones that it didn't kill in Holodomor? Oh yes ... It's Russia!)

But what's coming out of Ukraine now are reports by, oh yes the UN, that far far eclipse whatever sins the Ukrainians committed by magnitudes.

orangegato · 09/02/2023 13:28

YABU, he’s not invaded anywhere. I suppose you’d just roll over ey?

daytriptovulcan · 09/02/2023 13:28

Iseered · 09/02/2023 12:43

If you read the UN reports (before Russia invaded) you would see that Ukrainian soldiers were murderers, criminals, rapists and torturers if you were the wrong kind of Ukrainian.

Your narrative aligns perfectly with Kremlin propaganda.
Under international law Ukraine is entitled to defend itself.
It's pragmatic too, if Russia invades Estonia the crisis will increase exponentially. Let Ukraine defeat them in Ukraine.

KarmaStar · 09/02/2023 13:28

What on earth are you on about?
if Mr Zelensky was not such a determined,strategic ,brave and incredibly empathic leader Ukraine would possibly have fallen by now.If Ukraine falls Europe will be next,there is no doubt about that.
Putin needs stopping and now.
we need to supply as much as we can in the way of arms,welfare and friendship to these simply amazing people who have fought heroically for almost a year now.
slava ukraini 🇺🇦

Rosscameasdoody · 09/02/2023 13:41

Natsku · 09/02/2023 12:05

Some people are paid to disseminate Russian propaganda, others do it for free, because they believe it.

Thank you for clarifying.

sunshinenroses · 09/02/2023 13:48

ACynicalDad · 08/02/2023 21:30

The world must make sure Russia loses or they will try again. It will probably take tanks and planes to win, let’s do it quickly before Russia strengthens and keep the war as short as possible. Russia must not win. He’s an incredible leader, history will show his flaws, but he’s getting a lot right, let’s go with it.

Agree!

vera99 · 09/02/2023 14:20

www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/02/01/ukraine-avoid-long-war-rand-talks-argument/

The argument for why the West should change course on Ukraine
Analysis by Ishaan Tharoor

The war in Ukraine, at least for some policymakers in Western capitals, can be measured in deliveries of weapons. Their response to the brutal onslaught unleashed by Russia last February has been a parade of armor and steel: Javelins, howitzers, drones, strike vehicles, antiaircraft systems, HIMARS and, most recently, battle tanks. At every stage, Kyiv has clamored for more to throw out the invading Russians, and at almost every stage, the West has acceded to Ukrainian demands, though perhaps not at the speed Ukraine would like.

The next round of wrangling may center on Ukraine’s desire for scores of multipurpose fighter jets, which Kyiv wants as it prepares to repulse a rumored forthcoming Russian offensive and reclaim Russian-held territory in the country’s southeast, as well as the Crimean peninsula that Russia annexed in 2014. “Give us your weapons, and we will get back what’s ours,” Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky told the global elites in Davos last month.

When asked this week if he would send F-16 jets, President Biden flatly said “no,” while British officials said it was “not practical” to send such strike craft. But French President Emmanuel Macron told reporters that, “by definition, nothing is excluded” in terms of delivery of aid to Ukrainians. Such is the Western rhetorical commitment to the Ukrainian war effort. The West seems to fully embrace Ukraine’s fight for its sovereignty, as well as Kyiv’s maximalist vision for victory.

Western officials recognize that the war should (and probably can only) end diplomatically. But every time a reporter asks a Western politician or diplomat on the record what the endgame looks like, they almost always offer the same set of responses: It’s up to Ukraine to determine the conditions of the peace (even though without foreign help, they would likely not be able to hold their own); Russia is not interested in good faith negotiations; and the important task now is to arm Ukraine sufficiently so that its hand at a theoretical future negotiating table is as strong as it can be.

A new report takes issue with this position, warning that it puts the United States on the path toward open-ended conflict that could escalate even more dangerously. “Avoiding a long war: U.S. policy and the trajectory of the Russia-Ukraine conflict,” published recently by the influential Rand Corp., a Washington-based think tank, argued that the longer the war dragged on, the more likely the risk of an escalation that could pit Russia in direct conflict with NATO and possibly see the Kremlin deploy nuclear weapons on the battlefield. Instead of enabling the war to sprawl onward, Western powers should do more to push the warring parties toward talks, it advised.

This is an argument that has been made before — including by Henry Kissinger, a venerable fixture of the U.S. foreign policy establishment. But the Rand report marks perhaps the most systematic case for a shift in policy put forward by a Washington think tank, the vast majority of which have hailed the war in Ukraine as a good and necessary fight, as well as a moment to reassert U.S. leadership on the world stage. In a departure from the Beltway script, the report does not reference “democracy,” “rule of law,” or Western “values” once.

In sober terms, the report’s authors, political scientists Samuel Charap and Miranda Priebe, spell out the troubling structural factors of the war: Neither Russia nor Ukraine has a chance to secure “absolute victory” in the way they see it, yet both countries feel optimistic about their ability to win out in the longer run and are pessimistic about what may follow a cease-fire or uneasy peace.

Whatever the political rhetoric, uncertainty looms over how long the West can sustain its flows of aid and weapons to Ukraine. A new Pew poll shows that more Americans already believe the United States is giving too much to Ukraine, while the Rand report’s authors point to the obvious reality that an extended war would see more Ukrainian suffering and more economic havoc in Europe.

Then there’s the question of nuclear weapons. For months, Ukraine and its allies have urged their supporters to ignore Russian President Vladimir Putin’s sporadic attempts at nuclear brinkmanship.

“It’s a scare tactic,” Maj. Gen. Kyrylo Budanov, Ukraine’s military intelligence chief, recently told my colleagues in Kyiv. “Russia is a country that you can expect a lot from but not outright idiocy. Sorry, but it’s not going to happen. Carrying out a nuclear strike will result in not just a military defeat for Russia but the collapse of Russia. And they know this very well.”

Even then, Charap and Priebe point to the reality of the risk of “a hot war with a country that has the world’s largest nuclear arsenal.” An escalation in hostilities, perhaps even triggered by targeting errors or other tactical miscalculations in the fog of war, could quickly pull NATO countries into an open clash with Russia.

“Keeping a Russia-NATO war below the nuclear threshold would be extremely difficult, particularly given the weakened state of Russia’s conventional military,” they wrote. “Some analysts are doubtful that Russia would attack a NATO country since it is already losing ground to Ukrainian forces and would find itself in a war with the world’s most powerful alliance. However, if the Kremlin concluded that the country’s national security was severely imperiled, it might well deliberately escalate for lack of better alternatives.”

Why court such a scenario, they argue, when even settling along the current lines of the conflict would mark a significant Russian defeat? “The war has already been so devastating to Russian power that further incremental weakening is arguably no longer as significant a benefit for U.S. interests as in the earlier phases of the conflict,” Charap and Priebe wrote. “It will take years, perhaps even decades, for the Russian military and economy to recover from the damage already incurred.”

In a separate essay for the Economist, Christopher Chivvis, director of the American Statecraft Program at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, made a similar claim: “If the negotiations froze the battlelines where they are now, Putin would have paid a very high price for very limited gains,” he wrote. “His armed forces have displayed their incompetence to the whole world. Russia is now a pariah state and its relationship with Europe — for centuries its most important — is destroyed. Sanctions will slow Russia’s economic growth for years to come, even if they are eventually moderated in return for concessions from the Kremlin.”

The Rand authors advise, among other things, that the United States should offer a road map to Russia for what the conditions for eventual sanctions relief would look like. Chivvis contended that embarking even on an imperfect, fitful process of negotiations or talks about talks would be preferable to buying into the idea that Russia can be wholly dislodged from Ukrainian territory.

“Yes, it would be nice if Ukraine clawed back some more territory,” he wrote. “But at what cost and for what strategic gain? Even in the unlikely event that the West were to back Ukraine to the hilt for many years and were eventually to force Russia out of all Ukrainian territory, Russia would probably restart the war at some point to salvage its lost gains and its reputation.”

Charap and Priebe acknowledged in their introduction “that Ukrainians have been the ones fighting and dying to protect their country against an unprovoked, illegal, and morally repugnant Russian invasion.” But that still, in their view, does not mean that Ukraine’s interests are “synonymous” with those of the United States.

SleeplessInEngland · 09/02/2023 14:20

Russian bots are making threads now, I see.

Autumnnewname · 09/02/2023 14:22

Thanks to the pp that explained the difference between a bot and a shill

I've learned something from this thread. Maybe not what the OP intended, but at least it something

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 09/02/2023 14:43

for all the people quoting the Rand piece (and there are other pieces that disagree with the sometimes rather odd Rand Foundation), the military people who have analyzed what's going on have said that the best way to stop Putin carrying out another war is to drive him back to the pre-2014 borders of Russia.

It's also been pointed out many times that since Russia fears the US and wants to weaken it, this war has been excellent for the US since Russia is weakening itself. Just need to make sure it doesn't succeed in this war, unlike the others, because it'll just be encouraged to start yet another one if it succeeds here.

There was a rather amusing post by a Chinese person that in fact, Russia's helping China a lot by removing itself as a credible threat and reducing its GPD to the size of Guangdong's, one single province of China. How far it's true I don't know.

Jonnywishbone · 09/02/2023 14:47

I think there is a vast difference between saying Russia is not guilty of war crimes and that saying that we created this situation. They are completely separate things. It's pretty obvious that Russias conduct and behaviour is inhumane and illegal but that is a different point to saying that the we eg NATO/EU created a situation which led to Russian invasion. I don't think that nuance is particularly difficult to grasp. That doesn't excuse russian behaviour. Russia were very clear about what would happen, we ignored them and they invaded. We followed a course of action which led them to do exactly what they said they would do.

Whilst it would be nice to have ideological foreign policy its not realistic is it? We don't cut off relations with Saudi Arabia over human rights issues, we didn't intervene in multiple African civil wars to stop atrocities, we don't sanction India over its treatment of women, we didn't intervened in Syria when they gased their own population. What in particular made Ukraine so special that we decided that it was worth getting involved?

The other absolutely galling thing about this, is that having dangled the carrot of NATO membership to the Ukrainians which led to this situation, when the Ukraine did get invaded we didn't provide military support and pretty much left them to it with a few weapons and some training. We basically caused a fight and then walked away leaving them to beat each other up.

NumberTheory · 09/02/2023 15:04

Daftasabroom · 09/02/2023 13:24

Have a look at your image. If Putin is successful in his invasion of Ukraine he goes from having little border with NATO to, guess what? A big border with NATO. It's daft for either Putin or yourself to justify the invasion of Ukraine on the basis of NATO borders.

The USSR had borders with NATO for decades.

If Ukraine falls so will Moldova. Belarus will apply to join the Russian Federation. Then Estonia will be invaded. Latvia and Lithuania would be obvious candidates but they are members of NATO.

NATO only poses a threat to Putin if he attacks a NATO member. He knows this.

I don’t agree with the analysis that it was okay for Russia to invade to stop NATO being on its border. If Russia wanted Ukraine to look towards Russia rather than the West, it should have made more attractive offers to Ukraine, not invaded Crimea and threatened more.

However your objection here is confusing Russia with the countries it invades. If Russia succeeds in Ukraine it doesn’t increase the Russian border with NATO, it has a buffer country that it can control between it and NATO. And this is what it did with the USSR. The satellite countries provide a buffer and extended sphere of influence for Russia so that NATO bordered countries “friendly” to Russia but not Russia itself.

PerkingFaintly · 09/02/2023 15:10

The problem with that argument is that it assumes that NOT following the course of action would have caused Russia to NOT invade.

Which just doesn't match what Putin says about Ukraine being fundamentally a (subservient) part of Russia.

In 2021, before the Russian invasion, Putin published an essay setting out his vision for a Greater Russia:

During the recent Direct Line, when I was asked about Russian-Ukrainian relations, I said that Russians and Ukrainians were one people – a single whole. These words were not driven by some short-term considerations or prompted by the current political context. It is what I have said on numerous occasions and what I firmly believe.
en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/66181

In 2022 he said this:

www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/10/putin-compares-himself-to-peter-the-great-in-quest-to-take-back-russian-lands
Vladimir Putin has compared himself to the 18th-century Russian tsar Peter the Great, drawing a parallel between what he portrayed as their twin historic quests to win back Russian lands.

“Peter the Great waged the great northern war for 21 years. It would seem that he was at war with Sweden, he took something from them. He did not take anything from them, he returned [what was Russia’s],” the Russian president said on Thursday after a visiting an exhibition dedicated to the tsar.

After months of denials that Russia is driven by imperial ambitions in Ukraine, Putin appeared to embrace that mission, comparing Peter’s campaign with Russia’s current military actions.

“Apparently, it is also our lot to return [what is Russia’s] and strengthen [the country]. And if we proceed from the fact that these basic values form the basis of our existence, we will certainly succeed in solving the tasks that we face.”

vera99 · 09/02/2023 15:12

General Milley made a rare comment back in late November indicating a somewhat doveish approach from the Pentagon which was quickly backpedaled by the Biden administration. There is some chatter that the Rand report represents a consensus of US military thinking which is ahead of current thinking within the White House.

The scramble follows comments last week by Gen. Mark Milley, the Joint Chiefs chair. The four-star general said during an appearance at the Economic Club of New York that a victory by Ukraine may not be achieved militarily, and that winter may provide an opportunity to begin negotiations with Russia.

The general has spoken regularly with his Ukrainian counterpart, Gen. Valeriy Zaluzhnyy, including on Monday, according to a U.S. official. During the discussion, Zaluzhnyy did not express any concern or mention Milley’s comments even once, the person said. The person, along with others interviewed for this story, spoke on condition of anonymity in order to discuss internal deliberations.

www.politico.com/news/2022/11/14/u-s-ukraine-milley-negotiations-00066777

Alliswells · 09/02/2023 15:15

WarWhatIsItGoodFor · 08/02/2023 21:18

Exactly that. Why are UK politicians lapping it all up and hanging on to his every word? The laughter from MPs when he said he enjoyed English tea but now wants English planes… in what sense is that funny? He is wanting war planes to cause more bloodshed, death and destruction. I hope this doesn’t lead to Russian retaliation.

He wants planes to defend his country and people whom are under attack?

PerkingFaintly · 09/02/2023 15:23

Sorry, that was to Jonnywishbone re the argument that Putin has invaded Ukraine "because NATO/EU".

We're just not that relevant to his motivation.

It's just a line he finds useful to throw out, like the abuser in a relationship who forever says, "... I wouldn't, if only you hadn't done X". Keeps the abused partner forever trying to please a person who is determined never to be pleased.

luckylavender · 09/02/2023 15:27

PineappleMel · 08/02/2023 21:21

A year in, I'd like to know how many people are still hungry for this war.

How many want to send tanks? To send fighter jets? To keep escalating this?

So what's the alternative? We let Putin do what he wants. What part of the country would you give to France for example? Devon and Cornwall? The Home Counties? Lincolnshire.....? I don't know the answer.

Daftasabroom · 09/02/2023 15:37

@NumberTheory it's Putin confusing Russia with the countries he invades. He has even claimed large chunks of Ukraine as part of Russia without actually invading them (yet).

beautifulpaintings · 09/02/2023 15:43

WarWhatIsItGoodFor · 08/02/2023 21:18

Exactly that. Why are UK politicians lapping it all up and hanging on to his every word? The laughter from MPs when he said he enjoyed English tea but now wants English planes… in what sense is that funny? He is wanting war planes to cause more bloodshed, death and destruction. I hope this doesn’t lead to Russian retaliation.

How would you feel if Russia had bombed England into oblivion for the last year? Would you want to let Russia keep bombing and killing us and wiping us out, before renaming us a part of Russia, imprisoning anyone of us who ever then dared to try to speak out or resist?

Or would you prefer our PM organise a fight back by trying to have other countries support us as allies? Because that's exactly the situation Ukraine is in. They didn't ask for this invasion. They are just trying to stop the destruction of their nation.

LadyMary50 · 09/02/2023 15:53

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

It’s the Russians who are dragging his poor people through bloodshed.Do you think the Ukrainians should just open their arms and welcome the Russians.Do you think he should be wearing a 3 piece suit and tie,he’s more of a man than wimpy MPs..

SleeplessInEngland · 09/02/2023 15:57

Aboslutely no surprise that the OP fucked straight off after making the thread.

Other forums to post propaganda on I suppose.

BashirWithTheGoodBeard · 09/02/2023 16:04

Jonnywishbone · 09/02/2023 14:47

I think there is a vast difference between saying Russia is not guilty of war crimes and that saying that we created this situation. They are completely separate things. It's pretty obvious that Russias conduct and behaviour is inhumane and illegal but that is a different point to saying that the we eg NATO/EU created a situation which led to Russian invasion. I don't think that nuance is particularly difficult to grasp. That doesn't excuse russian behaviour. Russia were very clear about what would happen, we ignored them and they invaded. We followed a course of action which led them to do exactly what they said they would do.

Whilst it would be nice to have ideological foreign policy its not realistic is it? We don't cut off relations with Saudi Arabia over human rights issues, we didn't intervene in multiple African civil wars to stop atrocities, we don't sanction India over its treatment of women, we didn't intervened in Syria when they gased their own population. What in particular made Ukraine so special that we decided that it was worth getting involved?

The other absolutely galling thing about this, is that having dangled the carrot of NATO membership to the Ukrainians which led to this situation, when the Ukraine did get invaded we didn't provide military support and pretty much left them to it with a few weapons and some training. We basically caused a fight and then walked away leaving them to beat each other up.

This isn't ideological foreign policy, its pragmatic. The interests of the UK are met by giving Ukraine weapons to fight the Russians off. That's what makes them different to Syria, Saudi Arabia etc.

Also, the only way in which we could be argued to have created this war is previous appeasement of Putin. You have this completely arse about face.

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 09/02/2023 16:12

SleeplessInEngland · 09/02/2023 15:57

Aboslutely no surprise that the OP fucked straight off after making the thread.

Other forums to post propaganda on I suppose.

So true, just need to open up a voice for other bots, shills and useful idiots. Thankfully, even taking into account those on the Russian payroll, the majority of posters seem to see through the propaganda.
And let's be honest with the blatant war crimes and atrocities - rapes, torture, child abuse, child kidnapping, mining of dead bodies and on and on and on - the Russians make themselves very difficult to support, even for those employed to do so.