Page 15 | To think the adoration of Zelensky in the UK feels very wrong?

WarWhatIsItGoodFor · 2023-02-08T21:18:00+00:00

Exactly that. Why are UK politicians lapping it all up and hanging on to his every word? The laughter from MPs when he said he enjoyed English tea but now wants English planes… in what sense is that funny? He is wanting war planes to cause more bloodshed, death and destruction. I hope this doesn’t lead to Russian retaliation.

Fireingrate · 09/02/2023 10:36

Neededanewuserhandle · 08/02/2023 21:21

I don't think the adoration is for him personally, but for the way he and the Ukranians have stood up to an attempt at an illegal invasion of their country.
If we never stand up to Russia for fear of retaliation, then we have learned nothing from history.

Absolutely this.

If Russian wins we have sent a clear message that having nuclear weapons enables invasions, it does not prevent them. If Russia wins we have communicated that territorial land grabs are back on the cards for dictators.

Fireingrate · 09/02/2023 10:39

BashirWithTheGoodBeard · 09/02/2023 09:51

The people who think we shouldn't be assisting Ukraine aren't even doing selfishness right. It's unquestionably in our interests to arm the Ukrainians. We wouldn't be doing it otherwise. Luckily, in this instance our interests also happen to coincide with what is objectively the moral thing to do, so there aren't any difficult decisions to be made.

Well said.

Nooyoiknooyoik · 09/02/2023 10:39

ellyeth · 09/02/2023 10:31

Writing everybody, who expresses views that are disagreeable to you, as Russian infiltrators/bots, etc. is no doubt the sort of thing that Putin's officials and supporters are doing in Russia. Propaganda will, of course, be found on both "sides".

It is possible for someone to genuinely have doubts about the mainstream narrative and the wisdom of supplying more and more arms, which can only lead to more and more death and misery.

I recall that when we invaded Iraq the media reportage was, like now, almost wholly supportive of the invasion, and every news broadcast was introduced by music that was obviously meant to be both stirring and conveying a sense of urgency. It was only later that questioning voices were not depicted as traitorous/unhinged.

I am not a bot. I am in my 70's and a grandmother.

I wholeheartedly agree.
So much censorship and “othering” on both sides. Incredible in this age of technology when communication should be better than ever, not worse.

IsThePopeCatholic · 09/02/2023 10:43

I can’t bear the way Johnson has used Zelensky to try to improve his own image. Why is Zelensky so keen on Johnson? Can’t he see through him?

Boshi · 09/02/2023 10:44

Have a look at this image and think about why Russia would have been triggered by Ukraine trying to join NATO. To think Ukraine invited this war on themselves is a valid opinion, that they would have been better trying to negotiate with Russia than trying to join NATO.

Russia does not want NATO on its borders and it has warned Ukraine about the consequences. Fair enough Ukraine is a sovereign nation and decided to press ahead but equally Russia decided they did not want NATO on their borders. Hence, war. I’m not coming down on either side, both are corrupt countries but I do find Zelensky essentially guilt tripping the west to be a bit disingenuous when you look at how and why the war began.

To think the adoration of Zelensky in the UK feels very wrong?

ExistenceOptional · 09/02/2023 10:49

@Nooyoiknooyoik So people posting obvious lies is just another point of view?
I have zero issue with people posting facts and an argument I disagree with based on that. But this thread is full of all out lies to promote Russia.

PeanutButterSmoothie · 09/02/2023 10:50

Going on a bit of a tangent, I also feel bad for the Russian people as I doubt most civilians really wanted to go to war. The amount of children losing their fathers, women losing their husbands/sons, etc.

I don't think we have much choice but to resist Putin but it's a sobering thought that the firepower we send will be killing peoples loved ones rather than Putin and his generals.

ExistenceOptional · 09/02/2023 10:52

Younger Russians who use the internet are reported to be largely against the war. But Putin comes down hard on any internal opposition.

Cattenberg · 09/02/2023 10:57

I know the Russian regime isn’t just down to Putin, but would happen if Putin were to die soon, say within the next year?

BashirWithTheGoodBeard · 09/02/2023 10:57

Boshi · 09/02/2023 10:44

Have a look at this image and think about why Russia would have been triggered by Ukraine trying to join NATO. To think Ukraine invited this war on themselves is a valid opinion, that they would have been better trying to negotiate with Russia than trying to join NATO.

Russia does not want NATO on its borders and it has warned Ukraine about the consequences. Fair enough Ukraine is a sovereign nation and decided to press ahead but equally Russia decided they did not want NATO on their borders. Hence, war. I’m not coming down on either side, both are corrupt countries but I do find Zelensky essentially guilt tripping the west to be a bit disingenuous when you look at how and why the war began.

Its not a valid opinion, it's cringing apologism for war crimes.

What that map actually shows us is that the countries bordering Russia were sufficiently afraid of and provoked by its history of expansionism to make joining a military alliance an attractive proposition. Russia gave them the incentive.

The invasion of Ukraine is proof that the Nato countries around Russia made the correct choice. That's literally the best possible evidence there could be.

PeanutButterSmoothie · 09/02/2023 10:58

ExistenceOptional · 09/02/2023 10:52

Younger Russians who use the internet are reported to be largely against the war. But Putin comes down hard on any internal opposition.

I can well believe this is true. Even despite understanding the reality that a small number of people hold the military might, and that to resist them probably means death, it's still a weird thought that millions of reluctant people can be set at war against each other by a tiny minority.

ExistenceOptional · 09/02/2023 11:02

Sweden and Finland have applied to join NATO because they are concerned that Putin may try to invade them next.

DanseAvecLesLoup · 09/02/2023 11:04

Boshi · 09/02/2023 10:44

Have a look at this image and think about why Russia would have been triggered by Ukraine trying to join NATO. To think Ukraine invited this war on themselves is a valid opinion, that they would have been better trying to negotiate with Russia than trying to join NATO.

Russia does not want NATO on its borders and it has warned Ukraine about the consequences. Fair enough Ukraine is a sovereign nation and decided to press ahead but equally Russia decided they did not want NATO on their borders. Hence, war. I’m not coming down on either side, both are corrupt countries but I do find Zelensky essentially guilt tripping the west to be a bit disingenuous when you look at how and why the war began.

The war began with Russia being ideologically opposed to very existence of a Ukraine wanting to forge stronger ties with the EU. It has subsequently funded and agitated separatist movements in the east before the annexation of Crimea via invasion and a sham referendum. You can fuck off with your 'Ukraine invited this upon themselves' narrative. Having a large belligerent military neighbour hell bent on absorbing your territory into its self declared 'motherland' is kind of a strong incentive to get into bed with 'the West' don't you think? After four decades or so of direct oppressive control from Moscow it was hardly surprising that former Warsaw Pact countries wanted to tilt their interests west towards the more prosperous EU and the protection of NATO. Russia does not have the 'right' to expect those newly independent states to remain inside its sphere of influence. Be honest, how safe do you think the Baltic states would be if they were not NATO members?

BashirWithTheGoodBeard · 09/02/2023 11:05

ellyeth · 09/02/2023 10:31

Writing everybody, who expresses views that are disagreeable to you, as Russian infiltrators/bots, etc. is no doubt the sort of thing that Putin's officials and supporters are doing in Russia. Propaganda will, of course, be found on both "sides".

It is possible for someone to genuinely have doubts about the mainstream narrative and the wisdom of supplying more and more arms, which can only lead to more and more death and misery.

I recall that when we invaded Iraq the media reportage was, like now, almost wholly supportive of the invasion, and every news broadcast was introduced by music that was obviously meant to be both stirring and conveying a sense of urgency. It was only later that questioning voices were not depicted as traitorous/unhinged.

I am not a bot. I am in my 70's and a grandmother.

I was pretty involved in the anti Iraq war movement, to the extent that I was threatened with arrest and removed by the police at one protest.

This is an entirely different situation to Iraq because since then, the Russian state has attempted to weaponise the internet to spread disinformation. They have been doing it for years. Bots and infiltrators undoubtedly exist in a way that they simply didn't in 2003. Even if you think, somehow, that they wouldn't be utilised in this particular conflict, they are a factor that they simply weren't previously. When people talk about those who hold pro Russian views as bots, they're doing so in the context of a state operation that has spent years doing just that, even if the particular apologist they're addressing happens to be doing it of their own volition.

It's also wrong to say that supplying weapons can only lead to more death and misery, and stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation. I am not sure whether you think this or you're talking about people who do, but either way that view comes from ignorance. The Ukrainians have self determination and are going to resist whether we want them to or not, and whether we arm them or not. The only input we have is the quality of weapons they do it with.

DappledThings · 09/02/2023 11:06

A lot of people on here would do well to acquaint themselves with uaexplainers.com/.

LBFseBrom · 09/02/2023 11:08

He isn't someone to whom I give much thought but haven't been aware of any adulation for Zelensky over here. It's more a question of 'us' being on the side of the Ukraine rather than Russia which is fair enough. In other circumstances the attitude towards the man might well be quite different, he is a politician after all.

educateyourselfpeople · 09/02/2023 11:08

ellyeth · 09/02/2023 10:31

Writing everybody, who expresses views that are disagreeable to you, as Russian infiltrators/bots, etc. is no doubt the sort of thing that Putin's officials and supporters are doing in Russia. Propaganda will, of course, be found on both "sides".

It is possible for someone to genuinely have doubts about the mainstream narrative and the wisdom of supplying more and more arms, which can only lead to more and more death and misery.

I recall that when we invaded Iraq the media reportage was, like now, almost wholly supportive of the invasion, and every news broadcast was introduced by music that was obviously meant to be both stirring and conveying a sense of urgency. It was only later that questioning voices were not depicted as traitorous/unhinged.

I am not a bot. I am in my 70's and a grandmother.

This...

ExistenceOptional · 09/02/2023 11:12

No one has an issue with genuine doubts. They have an issue withy obvious lies that are spread through Russian misinformation campaigns.

BashirWithTheGoodBeard · 09/02/2023 11:12

DappledThings · 09/02/2023 11:06

A lot of people on here would do well to acquaint themselves with uaexplainers.com/.

Yep.

This is another reason why the parallel with Iraq fails. I completely understand not trusting either the government or the media on this, but you don't have to. Ukrainians themselves are communicating with us very clearly about what's happening and what they need. If someone cares enough to be on the internet discussing this, they can access that information.

Autumnnewname · 09/02/2023 11:16

headstone · 09/02/2023 10:17

No chance that Russia would ever attack Poland or a NATO country. Imo it would have been better all round if Ukraine had had a pro Russia president instead of Zellinsky, so many lives would have been saved by now. Escalation will just lead to a destroyed Ukraine and more deaths.

Do you think women who are raped a) deserve it and b) should just give in, because it would be better for them.

Do you encourage kids to stand up to bullies or give the bullies whatever they want, because it would be better for them

FFS

theadultsaretalking · 09/02/2023 11:17

DappledThings · 09/02/2023 11:06

A lot of people on here would do well to acquaint themselves with uaexplainers.com/.

Not a bot, very much pro Ukraine, absolutely understand where the people who put this resource together are coming from, but this is very much a blunt tool and doesn't reflect the complexity of what's going on and, frankly, sweeps some of the complex questions under the rug.

MasterBeth · 09/02/2023 11:19

Boshi · 09/02/2023 10:44

Have a look at this image and think about why Russia would have been triggered by Ukraine trying to join NATO. To think Ukraine invited this war on themselves is a valid opinion, that they would have been better trying to negotiate with Russia than trying to join NATO.

Russia does not want NATO on its borders and it has warned Ukraine about the consequences. Fair enough Ukraine is a sovereign nation and decided to press ahead but equally Russia decided they did not want NATO on their borders. Hence, war. I’m not coming down on either side, both are corrupt countries but I do find Zelensky essentially guilt tripping the west to be a bit disingenuous when you look at how and why the war began.

Ukraine is a sovereign nation and entitled to join all and any internatinoal bodies it wishes to for its own prosperity and protection.

Fair enough Ukraine is a sovereign nation and decided to press ahead but equally Russia decided they did not want NATO on their borders. Hence, war. I’m not coming down on either side.

There is absolutely no equivalence between your own nation pressing ahead with joining an international body and invading and occpuying a sovereign nation. Anyone who suggests there is is absolutely coming down on one side.

BashirWithTheGoodBeard · 09/02/2023 11:19

Autumnnewname · 09/02/2023 11:16

Do you think women who are raped a) deserve it and b) should just give in, because it would be better for them.

Do you encourage kids to stand up to bullies or give the bullies whatever they want, because it would be better for them

FFS

Show quote history

I actually think that post was quite useful. It spells out perfectly that the sort of person who thinks all we're doing now is escalating inevitably has no regard at all for Ukrainian self determination.

Autumnnewname · 09/02/2023 11:20

Boshi · 09/02/2023 10:44

Have a look at this image and think about why Russia would have been triggered by Ukraine trying to join NATO. To think Ukraine invited this war on themselves is a valid opinion, that they would have been better trying to negotiate with Russia than trying to join NATO.

Russia does not want NATO on its borders and it has warned Ukraine about the consequences. Fair enough Ukraine is a sovereign nation and decided to press ahead but equally Russia decided they did not want NATO on their borders. Hence, war. I’m not coming down on either side, both are corrupt countries but I do find Zelensky essentially guilt tripping the west to be a bit disingenuous when you look at how and why the war began.

Russia has absolutely no right to dictate to ANYONE about what alliances they should and shouldn't join

It's not a valid point to say Ukraine invited this, in fact it's disingenuous

So many genocide apologists. I'm praying that they are bots because if they're not, then what the tick has happened to Mn

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 09/02/2023 11:23

educateyourselfpeople · 09/02/2023 07:06

I absolutely agree with this...

Show quote history

I've come back to this because I think it's important.

The existence of bot farms has been verified:

www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-exposes-sick-russian-troll-factory-plaguing-social-media-with-kremlin-propaganda

"UK-funded expert research has exposed how the Kremlin is using a troll factory to spread lies on social media and in comment sections of popular websites....

"The research exposes how the Kremlin’s large-scale disinformation campaign is designed to manipulate international public opinion of Russia’s illegitimate war in Ukraine, trying to grow support for their abhorrent war, and recruiting new Putin sympathisers."....

[and]

focusing activity on posting comments, rather than authoring original content – a tactic likely to decrease the risks of being detected by social media platforms for engaging in coordinated inauthentic behaviour and/or harmful content

From:

Foreign, Commonwealth & Development Office,"

That's bots and shills. (bots being automated programs who post comments, shills being real paid people)

Again, keep in mind

"According to the Intelligence and Security Committee Russia report, released on 21 July 2020, there is substantial evidence that Russian interference in the British economy and politics is commonplace"
(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_British_politics)

I think that it's odd to believe that the UK and even a forum like mumsnet would be targetted, but the statement by the govt indicates this -is- going on (it's a big UK forum) and as I said, and detailed, in a previous post, after a time you learn the signs to watch out for.

As it happened, I'd already encountered a shill some years ago. At first I thought they were posting in good faith, but then realised there was something with his slipperiness and the absolute refusal to listen to people who had direct personal experience of living under Soviet rule, plus the consistently distorted or uneven way he presented facts and events.

I'm afraid that since the beginning of this war there have been a number of shills and on this thread there are indeed some posters who have exactly those characteristics.

I've followed the war fairly closely and there seems to be directions from the Kremlin as to the line to push. At times it's quite funny - when Zelenskyy went to the US, a whole pile of accounts started pushing the line that "it's terrible that he didn't wear a suit"... all in exactly the same phrasing, posted with the same time stamp. There's coincidence, and then there's not.