To think the adoration of Zelensky in the UK feels very wrong?

[WarWhatIsItGoodFor]

Exactly that. Why are UK politicians lapping it all up and hanging on to his every word? The laughter from MPs when he said he enjoyed English tea but now wants English planes… in what sense is that funny? He is wanting war planes to cause more bloodshed, death and destruction. I hope this doesn’t lead to Russian retaliation.

Give Ukraine whatever it needs. The more dead Russian soldiers, the better for everyone.

Absolutely!
I'm certainly no fan of Russia, but everyone is overlooking the fact that this whole drama was created by Ukraine making plans to join NATO. What did they expect, other than a bloody, evil war?
They all disgust me.
The waste, the pain and the horror of it all was just to serve a bit of masculine flag-waving.

Now, now, you'll upset the pearl clutchers

I recall from another thread one poster declaring that calling them "Orcs" was they worst thing they'd seen on Mumsnet. What a sheltered life.

We're overlooking it because the majority of people understand that it's bollocks.

A lot of people have been following the war and observed the extra activity of shills at particular times, such as when Zelenskyy leaves his country or if a new tranch of military or financial aid is offered.

Three final thoughts:

The Eastern European countries are backing Ukraine to the HILT. Because they know what it's like to live under Russian rule. And they don't want it.

Russia has moved back into an aggressive phase: Chechnya, Syria, South Ossetia, Transnistra. They have openly stated they want to expand beyond Ukraine.

three, these photos, before and after the Russians invaded Mariupol. There were 300-600 women and children in that theatre. Very few got out, and the Russians shot the people who tried to rescue them.

The waste, the pain and the horror of it all was just to serve a bit of masculine flag-waving Yes, that is what Putin is doing. Continuing his ongoing colonial intentions and happy to commit horrific genocide in order to achieve them.

Ukraine wanted to be the independent, democratic nation they are. Of course they wanted to join NATO. They had a terrifying imperialistic power on their doorstep openly trying to attack them through various means for years. Wanting to join a defensive alliance isn't masculine flag-waving, it's bloody sensible.

@Redebs

Your ignorance disgusts me, so hey. Swings and roundabouts.

This is Putin and his imperial ambitions. NATO is a narrative being pushed by certain parties and, as has been shown time and time again, is fuck all to do with NATO

Views on the Baltic states and Kaliningrad. I wonder why they haven't invaded Poland or Lithuania (yet)

Why shouldn't Ukraine join NATO. Maybe if they had done so, they wouldn't be getting murdered by the Russian nazis

You might not be a 'fan', but you are a grovelling apologist. So Ukraine should have just surrennded and be occupied as punishment for wanting to make independent foreign policy decisions that does not favour the Kremlin?

The level of privilege and ignorance it takes for people who sit safely in the West to smugly opine on Ukrainian flag waving is quite something. Know your place, little people. Don't presume to self determination, it's a bit inconvenient.

I'm actually disgusted at the number of posts from presumably educated people who are indulging in victim blaming of the most vile type.

Honestly. Disgusting

I think none of you here and that includes myself know the real reason all this is happening in Ukraine but I am certain it is bigger than Putin bad Zelensky good and goes back in history before a lot of us were even born.

Exactly this, wait until war is on their doorstep. Imagine going to pick up your child from nursery and you can’t because it’s been bombed and your child is dead. We are so far removed from war in the UK that people can’t actually comprehend it. They have no idea about Russian or Eastern European history and maybe if they did some digging they would see all the disgusting things that the USSR did to its occupied states.

He is defending his country & his people, and all European nations need to support him.
You do know that appeasement doesn't work, don't you OP?

Of course it does. Which is why reading someone like Timothy Snyder is so important. Or listening to his lecture series on Spotify or YouTube. Answers a lot of questions.

I would recommend anyone with an interest read the RAND report in full. They are no shills or Russian bots but right at the heart of US foreign policy development and have been for more than 70 years. The fact that they seem to believe that the push for a dirty peace should begin sooner rather than later and is to the benefit of all parties should give us pause for thought. It should be noted that they will have access to much more detailed intelligence and war models than most of us will ever have. I would suspect that they have come to that conclusion because they think Ukraine cannot win and a continuance is not in the US and to a lesser extent wider western interests. Particularly so in that Joe Biden is facing an election cycle in the near future America is your friend until they're not as many countries have found out in the end.

Thanks, DappledThings.

That Ukraine Explainers site – by Ukrainians – is really informative.

They're really very unhappy about Russian imperialism, and Russia's constant attempts to cast Ukraine as a mere Russian colony.

Agree. Bots I can deal with but genuine posters with this level of either disinterest, lack of understanding and lack of empathy are another matter. The mental acrobatics needed to defend Russia at this point are mind boggling.

And on the matter of Ukraine causing this by courting NATO - why the fuck shouldn’t they? They’re a sovereign nation who can court whatever alliances they want.

Eg from Ukrainian Explainers
uaexplainers.com

Why Ukrainians and Russians are not brothers
And why calling for their reconciliation right now is abusive

Since the start of the Russian full-scale invasion of Ukraine, many voices have been calling for solidarity and peace between the two "brotherly" nations." [...]
Many Ukrainians feel angered and misunderstood because of the "befriending" attempts.

Russia is waging a war of genocide and extermination against Ukraine. This is not a dispute between two nations that can't get along. This is a neo-imperialistic war that seeks to completely destroy Ukraine. [...]

Ukrainians don't buy the idea that this is Putin's war.
They have felt that Russians have treated Ukrainians as inferiors for centuries. They know how many Russians are cheering for this war.[...]

"Brotherly Nations" is an old Russian imperial narrative.
For the last 350 years, Russia and Ukraine have mostly existed as an empire and its colony. Russia has tried to destroy Ukraine's political autonomy, ban the Ukrainian language from public use, and erase Ukrainian identity.
Russia has created and exploited the "brotherly nations" narrative to justify its imperial claims over other nations: Poland, Czechoslovakia, the Balkans, and more. If you invade a "brotherly" nation, then you're there to help, right?
When Russia talks about "brotherly nations," it always pictures Russians as the older brother and other nations as the younger ones. For instance, Russians sometimes refer to Ukrainians as "Little Russians."[...]
This version of "brotherhood" completely rejects the idea of a sovereign Ukrainian state and turns everybody who supports independent Ukraine into a "Nazi" who deserves to be murdered.[...]

Unfortunately, this war is the modern culmination of Russia's unchecked imperialism (check our cards about Russian imperialism to learn more). It runs deeper than just Putin's regime, and it must be resolved in a more nuanced way. [...]

How to treat the "Brotherly Nations" narrative
First of all, start listening to Ukrainians.[...]
Stop "Westsplaining." Ukrainians and Easter Europeans know Russia far better that people in the West.
Remember, Ukrainians have the right to be outraged and angry. They have the right to distance themselves from Russians.

X-posted with Logburnerperils. I think that site may answer some of your questions, Logburner.

PerkingFaintly · Today 11:45
Well said.

@vera99 Ukraine want peace and keep pushing for meetings. But anything agreed with Russia in meetings has subsequently been ignored by Putin. So temporary ceasefires have not been observed.
It takes both sides to negotiate peace. Anyone who actually understands what is happening and wants peace negotiated really mean that Ukraine should give Russia what it wants.

I think the way he stepped up when the Russians invaded Ukraine was admirable, he has shown himself to have hidden depths. A very good leader.

If anyone thinks Russia would stop at the Ukraine/Poland border, they are deluded and that is why Europe are helping him as they are. The alternative is WW3, and our current economic situation is partly down to the invasion of Ukraine.

We need to carry on helping them because it's better than entering WW3

Johnson has said yesterday we should give Ukraine all our jets and tanks.

If anyone thinks Russia would stop at the Ukraine/Poland border, they are deluded and that is why Europe are helping him as they are

Correct. Nearly all European counties recognise that helping Ukraine is in their own self interest too.

Some people are paid to disseminate Russian propaganda, others do it for free, because they believe it.