To feel hopeless about male violence

[brujarosada]

Everywhere I turn I see news stories where it's implicitly understood that a man harmed a woman. An obvious family annhilator? Definitely the husband. Woman disappears while out? Obviously a man.

I know that this is nothing new, but it feels so inevitable and hopeless. Women getting angry gets some attention sometimes (like with Sarah Everard). But there's no real change and toxic masculinity seems to be ever more celebrated - for example, there's currently a story in The Guardian about an influencer who is capturing the imagination of secondary school boys everywhere.

Am I wrong to feel so hopeless? Is there some sort of inspiring change that I am missing?

Being in a pub and fighting in a pub are not the same.

So they wash their hands of it and make it women's problem to defend themselves, which is even more dangerous. If society including other men did intervene very strongly in public whenever such behaviour was observed there would be far less of it. If all men shunned other men who behaved this way and refused to be their friends/ employ them then there would be far less of it.

There's a word missing.

Those men are also victims of violence by other men.

It's not women attacking them.

This is a male problem and men need to take responsibility for it.

So they wash their hands of it and make it women's problem to defend themselves, which is even more dangerous. If society including other men did intervene very strongly in public whenever such behaviour was observed there would be far less of it

That would probably lead to more violence since you’d have to use violence to stop it. Instead,
public spaces could be made more safe with security guards able to use more force.

In the above example, drunk men should never have been allowed on the train.

While women are way more likely to be victims of domestic violence men are way more likely to subject to a random attack. Sadly quite a few of my male friends have been 'jumped' for crime of 'walking home alone', they were not picking fights in pubs, dealing drugs or being members of some football gang.

So rather than locking up the disgusting people who do it the victims must ride a pink bus. FFS.

You sound really wanting to challenge the point. There are over a hundred countries in the world, why do I have to think about these countries you've mentioned?

I'm not going into details. But if you want to believe things in this country IS the norm, please carry on to do so.

What is the norm exactly?

In East Asia, where I lived for much of my life, public spaces are safer. Murders are much rarer. People are less violent. I felt safe walking home totally inebriated at all hours of the night.

But those are quite misogynistic societies.

By the way, Saudi is not somewhere I'm even interested in setting my foot on their soil for their record of treating women. So I don't know what you intention is to cite places like this.

I appreciate why you're feeling that way but we don't know what has happened, it could be eg Carbon Monoxide poisoning. It feels really distasteful to be speculating on this particular case when the police haven't yet released any details.

Aw is it exhausting reading that women are terrified? Poor you! I can just imagine how tiring it is to read those words about women constantly looking over their shoulders, walking faster, crossing roads, trying to fend off unwanted attention from people who are "just being nice," gripping their car keys a bit tighter, hoping a few passersby will come soon, trying not to breathe too loudly or look too scared, hearing their phone battery die and trying to remember whether they told their kids they loved them before they left the house. I totally get it, have a little lie down.

Realistically it’s a some men problem, and society needs to take responsibility for it.

@EmmaGrundyForPM they were found at 1am, it wasn’t carbon monoxide poisoning…

We don't know what's happened, it could be something like CO poisoning. it feels tasteless to speculate at this point.

There is no such thing as toxic masculinity. That obfuscates the issue and solves nothing. There are only men, boys and animals. Men as a collective are not represented by the animals. If 50% of men were as the OP describes, society would cease to function.

So learn to recognise savages at the earliest point. Share your findings. Stop dating and procreating with these animals. Keep your mace and pepper spray strapped on & locked in. Involve the police at the first instance of savagery, so there's a record on them and we can get them off the streets asap.

The enemy isn't men. It's the savages. Lets work together, with men, for a safer society for us all.

I heard that people with a dark triad personality are more likely to be successful and therefore reproduce, so more people with the same personality traits are being born.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_triad

Possible, but why would the police have been called at 1am if that was the case? They surely would not have been discovered until the following day?

The "animals" as you say were once boys. They were babies, wrapped in their parents' arms, and they were cheeky little children who played and laughed and went off to school like everybody else. Somewhere along the line they became animals. That's where toxic masculinity comes in; it's society's influence on that process.

"Learning to recognise the savages" again puts the responsibility on the victims, does it not? What if we're bad at recognising them; do we get what we deserve? Involving the police is not always possible, and in any event will very rarely "get them off the streets" at the first sign of violence.

Incidentally, carrying mace and pepper spray is illegal in the UK.

I don't believe that bad men only associate with other bad men and vice versa. The 3 domestic abusers I know/knew are all "salt of the earth" men, in heroic type jobs (paramedic, police, lifeguard) and have reputations as very very nice men. One of them put his wife in hospital for 3 months.

The sexual predator I know of is a decorated war hero and very popular.

And intervening in a witnessed attack doesn't have to be a violent intervention. I was the only woman in a tube carriage once, a man climbed on top of me and tried to force a bottle of wine down my throat. Every men in the carriage looked the other way. When I finally managed to push him off me he screamed that I was a slut and a whole, until I could get off at the next stop. No one asked if I was OK or saw that I safely got off the train. There were at least 8 other men there

I wonder how many men have watched the Emily Atack programme? Very few I would imagine. I watched it with my partner and he admitted he would not have watched it otherwise. He was surprised by the amount of abuse she got. It needs to be shown at schools. It’s about education.

watching an episode of riptide last night. The extended family were celebrating a birthday. 3 men 2 women. At the end of the meal the two women got up and cleared the table. It’s ingrained in us all. I’m only starting to notice it now.

I’ve come to the conclusion that men as a sex are often toxic

Fixed that for you there. If delta-male behaviour like this happens among farm animals they’re generally castrated and/or slaughtered.

I would argue that there is a very strong correlation between someones moral compass and values and the company they keep. I tend drink in pubs not full of twats so I don't have to listen to casual racism or sexism. I try and make sure my social circle is not full of pricks. I would also imagine that most abusers do not casually admit to friends or strangers alike that they physically/financially/emotionally/sexually abuse their partners. If I found out a friend was an abuser I would end that friendship. I have also learned the hard way that 'stepping in' to try and moderate or stop some strangers offensive behaviour is fraught with the very real risk of getting the shit kicked out of you.

I know of a man that frequents prostitutes. I don’t know if his wife knows. He has always done this. He isn’t my friend. He has a group of male friends that know this. They still meet him for drinks, meals out etc. The only change over the many years is that the friends wife’s/partners refuse to socialise if he is there. The men still go. But these are old men ie late 50s early 60s. I can only hope the younger generation would refuse to go out…….

@DanseAvecLesLoup that's my point, you're unlikely to know if there is an abuser amongst your family or friends. I certainly don't know those men through hanging round in dodgy pubs with horrible people.

And intervention doesn't have to be physical. But what you could do if you saw a woman being assaulted on the train is:

1. press the alarm for help
2. call the police
3. ask the victim if they were OK
4. ask if they'd like me to walk with them to the station office

The way I see it, every single man on that train thought it was OK to assault a lone female. They all turned the other way.

There's an important aspect you are also ignoring.

Men are the problem.