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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Mason Greenwood.

402 replies

Icannotbelieveitatall · 02/02/2023 14:23

I cannot believe that the charges have been dropped.

Anyone remember the audio recording?

He demanded she put her legs up.
“Mason stop, I don’t want to have sex.”
”I don’t give a fuck what you want.”

Charges dropped. I cannot believe it.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Mannymoomin · 03/02/2023 16:17

prh47bridge · 03/02/2023 16:09

No, an argument that she enjoyed rough sex was not part of the Ched Evans case.

And note that 75% of ISVAs saying they have witnessed this is not the same as saying it happened in 75% of cases. The survey involved 36 advisers who worked on 550 trials, so all that tells us is that questioning happened in at least 27 of the 550 trials.

Show quote history

I’m not saying that the Ched Evans case included rough sex as a defence, I’m saying that it was the case that past sexual history of the victim was used.

Admittedly that study was small, but still, it happens, and without the permission of the judge, it shouldn’t, it’s really dangerous for women and girls

prh47bridge · 03/02/2023 16:24

Mannymoomin · 03/02/2023 16:17

I’m not saying that the Ched Evans case included rough sex as a defence, I’m saying that it was the case that past sexual history of the victim was used.

Admittedly that study was small, but still, it happens, and without the permission of the judge, it shouldn’t, it’s really dangerous for women and girls

Show quote history

I wasn't entirely sure what you meant, in all honesty, but, with the previous quotes in the thread, it sounded like you might be saying Evans involved rough sex.

Agree completely that questioning of the complainant's sexual history should not happen without the judge's permission. Of course, we don't know the details of the cases observed by these ISVAs, so we don't know what was asked or whether the judge gave permission. If questions were asked without the judge's permission, the judge should have intervened, warned the barrister concerned and told the complainant that they didn't need to answer.

prh47bridge · 04/02/2023 00:40

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 03/02/2023 15:17

47bridge sorry lazy typing, Ched Evans. I may have incorrectly remembered but I'm sure "further evidence " by the defence was her asking a past partner for a certain sex act/type of sex.

You said later that the victim/accuser starting a relationship up again with the accused is one of the reasons convictions are so low. This must be incredibly rare surely?

Apologies for the late response. Only just noticed this!

It was two men with whom she had had casual sex. Her asking for a certain sex act was part of it, but there was rather more that showed her behaving in the way described by Evans and McDonald. Also, one of them, who had known her for a number of years, gave evidence of previous occasions when she had lost her memory after drinking a relatively small amount of alcohol.

I can't answer your second question. I know that the complainant withdraws from the case in a little under 50% of reported rapes. I don't know of any statistics on the reasons for complainants withdrawing so, although I know the complainant starting or resuming a relationship with the alleged attacker is one of the reasons, I have no idea how common that is. The nearest I can get is a US study that found 75% of victim/perpetrator relationships continuing after sexual assault, with close relationships being more likely to survive than casual relationships or friendships.

If we really want to improve the conviction rate for rape, messing around with what happens in court and taking away protections for the accused are not the right way to go about it. The conviction rate for cases that get to court is already good. Someone needs to find out why so many complainants withdraw from the process, then we can see what needs to be fixed.

WellIvenotheardthefullstory · 04/02/2023 17:29

Well I kinda gotta say it’s a good job it didn’t get to trial if this is the generalised feeling based on that 50 second audio recording.

imagine you are on that jury.

is that recording pleasant to listen too? No absolutely not! It’s really not nice at all…

but you absolutely cannot convict on that…

there’s absolutely no context of before and after and no proof it was him.

she didn’t sound terrified scared or intoxicated and she’s back with him by all accounts.

Are the pictures unpleasant- yes they are… but hello! amber heard anyone? She’s been absolutely cancelled for her “apparent” faking of DV pictures.

There may have been more evidence that encouraged the CPS to press formal charges. But WE don’t know that. All any of us have heard is circumstantial that she’s released online. We don’t know if there was any argument/falling out that’s made that a “revenge” leak. Apart from the fact that he’s cheated on her with a model

The withdrawal of key witnesses (I assume her) I guess means she’s said she will no longer give evidence against him.

but why?? They are back together? But also NEW material…. Nobody knows what this is! Something that provides context to the audio? Something showing she’s pissed off and out to get him? (I assume the fact that she didn’t report him to the police prevents a charge of false allegation against her)

She could have turned around and said “it was role play” and provided proof of this…. NOBODY KNOWS but you are all presuming guilty which goes against the fundamentals of the Justice system

The CPS saying there is not a reasonable chance of conviction means exactly that… the evidence does NOT support it. If it went to trial quite frankly the judge may even direct a not guilty verdict.

Ive been so back and forth with this… did he/didn’t he….

my most recent thought is “he absolutely must have because there’s no way he’d get back with her if she’d stitched him up like that - he’s never trust her again, and why she’s with him if there’s No coercion/control from him over her after he did that”

but then i shot myself in the foot because if was all a set up how do we know there’s no coercion or control from her…. Maybe it’s the other way round and he got back with her because she promised him he’d be okay and provide proof he was innocent and she’d pull out the case if he did … and is that the new material that’s come to light??

We just don’t know… so I’ve fallen back to “what DO I know and what would I decide if I was on a jury with just that evidence” and I’d have to be honest and say “not guilty”

🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️

Ireallydohope · 04/02/2023 20:30

Icannotbelieveitatall · 02/02/2023 14:23

I cannot believe that the charges have been dropped.

Anyone remember the audio recording?

He demanded she put her legs up.
“Mason stop, I don’t want to have sex.”
”I don’t give a fuck what you want.”

Charges dropped. I cannot believe it.

To what end was this recorded for in the first place

That in itself is a bit weird

Iam4eels · 04/02/2023 21:38

Ireallydohope · 04/02/2023 20:30

To what end was this recorded for in the first place

That in itself is a bit weird

Show quote history

Because he's a multimillionaire foorballer who can basically do no wrong as far as his club's many fans are concerned, he could literally kick someone's Nana down the stairs and they wouldn't give a shit so long as he scored some goals on his way there.

She recorded it because she knew people wouldn't take her word over his, you only need to look at how people treated Ched Evans victim to see that.

WellIvenotheardthefullstory · 04/02/2023 23:16

Ireallydohope · 04/02/2023 20:30

To what end was this recorded for in the first place

That in itself is a bit weird

Show quote history

@Ireallydohope

this is what confuses me…. It’s just all so contrived.

I reckon a lot of sexual violence cases either don’t make court or fail to convict because of a lack of evidence. It’s all a bit he said/she said and sometimes a jury has very little to go on other than who seems the most credible witness.

And it just makes me feel like … I dunno… a lot of victims will say things like they froze, they panicked, they zoned out, they went in to shock, they blame themselves because they didn’t fight back. What they do not say is that They were able to manage to discreetly get their phone whilst their attacker was forcing them to open their legs and record it to release on Instagram.

i dunno…. It just feels all off and if I was on a jury just purely based on that … I couldn’t say he was guilty.

Spottypaperdoll · 05/02/2023 07:51

It will be interesting to see what Manchester United do, if all legal proceedings have ended, he can’t be ‘sacked’ as surely he would then sue for unfair dismissal? Equally will they want to keep him and not play him? Despite still paying his wages?
I suspect they will end up selling him to a team abroad.

BashirWithTheGoodBeard · 05/02/2023 08:31

It will be interesting to see what Manchester United do, if all legal proceedings have ended, he can’t be ‘sacked’ as surely he would then sue for unfair dismissal?

No, not necessarily.

There'll be some clauses about damage to reputation of the club or similar in his contract, and he's broken his bail conditions several times. I agree with you though I think he'll end up abroad.

BankOfDave · 05/02/2023 08:37

Don’t know the context or why behind any of it. But I don’t believe that recording is role play.

Ostagazuzulum · 05/02/2023 08:47

FrownedUpon · 02/02/2023 14:47

Money talks

100% this!

dew141 · 05/02/2023 08:53

The club seem to have pre-empted things by saying the dressing room don't want him back. Might be the media stirring but he's an average player, certainly no Ronaldo or Messi in their prime so I suspect they'd be glad to ship the problem off to another club.

BashirWithTheGoodBeard · 05/02/2023 08:57

dew141 · 05/02/2023 08:53

The club seem to have pre-empted things by saying the dressing room don't want him back. Might be the media stirring but he's an average player, certainly no Ronaldo or Messi in their prime so I suspect they'd be glad to ship the problem off to another club.

I wonder if he might be glad of that himself too, actually. At least some of his teammates are liable to have a problem with him and he's likely to be at greater risk of harm than the average footballer. If I were him I'd go somewhere that people didn't know me and where it wasn't front page news.

CohenTree · 05/02/2023 09:05

After reading the comments here I'm not surprised she dropped the case and took a payout (if that is indeed what happened).

Assuming the tape is genuine... who would want anything to do with Greenwood after this? Whether it was technically 'rape' or not is almost beside the point. "Move your leg you twat, I want to f*you"...? Do people actually speak to their partners like this?

"I asked you politely and you said no, so what am I supposed to do"... Really(?)

I read that his team mates at Man U have said they don't want him back. Good on them if it's true.

dew141 · 05/02/2023 09:07

Possibly although I suspect his ego might think otherwise. He's not going to be sold to Barcelona or Real Madrid and I suspect wherever he went would be a step down in terms of money and reputation.

He's not exactly in the best position to negotiate although no doubt his agent will earn his fee.

Butchyrestingface · 05/02/2023 09:14

IntentionalError · 02/02/2023 15:08

There have been rumours about them being back in contact for months. It’s pretty clear what has happened here. For whatever reason, she has decided she doesn’t want him to be prosecuted and without her co-operation the CPS do not have a case against Greenwood.

Show quote history

Just snorted at the prospect of 'Hello' covering the wedding.

Butchyrestingface · 05/02/2023 09:21

To what end was this recorded for in the first place

That in itself is a bit weird

Not in the slightest. You think he was a model boyfriend with a rose-between-his-teeth until that moment? He'll have done this before. Eventually, she decided to start recording him.

The recent Ellie Wilson case in Glasgow demonstrates that even when you manage to record your rapist admitting to raping you, even if you DO manage to get some kind of justice through the courts, it's still only going to be a MAJORITY verdict because even bald admissions of guilt isn't enough to sway some fannies on the jury.

WellIvenotheardthefullstory · 05/02/2023 10:09

BankOfDave · 05/02/2023 08:37

Don’t know the context or why behind any of it. But I don’t believe that recording is role play.

@BankOfDave honestly me neither ….

but is it attempted rape? Could you listen to just that audio and convict someone with no proof of who it is and no context before and after of attempted rape? Which is what the jury was being asked to do.

that’s a bloody fine line considering a guilty verdict should only be made when it’s beyond all reasonable doubt.

Unfortunately that audio whilst unpleasant is completely subjective. A defence lawyer can poke all kinda holes in it

WellIvenotheardthefullstory · 05/02/2023 10:10

Butchyrestingface · 05/02/2023 09:21

To what end was this recorded for in the first place

That in itself is a bit weird

Not in the slightest. You think he was a model boyfriend with a rose-between-his-teeth until that moment? He'll have done this before. Eventually, she decided to start recording him.

The recent Ellie Wilson case in Glasgow demonstrates that even when you manage to record your rapist admitting to raping you, even if you DO manage to get some kind of justice through the courts, it's still only going to be a MAJORITY verdict because even bald admissions of guilt isn't enough to sway some fannies on the jury.

Well that’s a whole different kettle of fish. If that was a majority verdict I’m gobsmacked. He’s admitted his guilt. He should have been found guilty

Butchyrestingface · 05/02/2023 10:14

Courtesy of The Darkness Sun:

It was revealed that he breached his bail by contacting the alleged victim in the case... “He was arrested on Saturday morning for breaching his police conditional bail. He was found in the company of the complainant.”

Greenwood’s lawyer, David Toal, admitted the breach had taken place, saying: ... “Contact has occurred for many months" but maintained it was “no secret” to Greater Manchester Police.

District Judge Mark Hadfield responded by saying: “What I am being told is the defendant flagrantly breached the conditions over weeks or even months and police haven’t done anything about it.

The judge denied Greenwood bail at the hearing on October 17 2022, and remanded him in custody, but the decision was overturned on appeal two days later.

Fairly obvious what has happened here.

'Til next time, Mason (and there WILL be a next time).

BankOfDave · 05/02/2023 10:18

WellIvenotheardthefullstory · 05/02/2023 10:09

@BankOfDave honestly me neither ….

but is it attempted rape? Could you listen to just that audio and convict someone with no proof of who it is and no context before and after of attempted rape? Which is what the jury was being asked to do.

that’s a bloody fine line considering a guilty verdict should only be made when it’s beyond all reasonable doubt.

Unfortunately that audio whilst unpleasant is completely subjective. A defence lawyer can poke all kinda holes in it

Show quote history

I don’t think we know all the evidence the CPS had as if it was only this tape I don’t they would have pressed charges initially. If other evidence and witnesses have subsequently withdrawn then it’s probably not enough for a conviction, no. I think they could easily identify if it was someone’s voice using software but all that aside, conviction or not, he sounds like an abuser.

Felix125 · 05/02/2023 17:04

If she made the recording, then it is her exhibit.

If she is withdrawing her complaint - then the exhibit will have to be withdrawn also. You will have no one to exhibit it basically

YetiTeri · 05/02/2023 20:27

dew141 · 05/02/2023 09:07

Possibly although I suspect his ego might think otherwise. He's not going to be sold to Barcelona or Real Madrid and I suspect wherever he went would be a step down in terms of money and reputation.

He's not exactly in the best position to negotiate although no doubt his agent will earn his fee.

Going to any club in the UK will result in opposition chants of 'dirty fucking rapist' and home fans responding 'he rapes who he wants'. Just like all his predecessors.

And the rape victims in the crowd will have to sit there and listen to it and know that their clubs do not give a single shit about them.

NashvilleQueen · 06/02/2023 05:13

Might be the media stirring but he's an average player, certainly no Ronaldo or Messi in their prime so I suspect they'd be glad to ship the problem off to another club.

In 2021 he was ranked second in the world's best teen players. Utd should get rid of him and not being in training will have no doubt affected him but it's not right to describe him as average. He was seen as an incredible talent a couple of years ago.

dew141 · 06/02/2023 06:23

He was seen as an incredible talent a couple of years ago.

Not sure I'd agree but fair enough.

He's only played for England once (as a sub against Iceland) and wasn't picked for the World Cup qualifiers in 2021 though.

Part of that may be down to his and Phil Foden's behaviour in Iceland but Foden is the same age and has 22 caps for England by comparison. Not a particular fan of Foden either, I'd pick Saka for talent over him.