So angry at all these threads on useless and selfish men

[Winterday1991]

Off the back of the thread where the H refuses to care for his sick child so the OP can get some much needed rest as he is on annual leave from work 😡. I am seriously fed up of reading threads like this, why are so many men so selfish?

Why is it always women who have to do the lions share of caring, pulling themselves in all direction whilst their male counterparts glide through life uninterrupted? Why is it always women who carry the mental load for family life and the men just show up. Why is always women responsible for maintaining the household?

Even in the 21st century, why do so many men get such a bloody easy ride, whilst often their poor wives/partners are running around like headless chickens keeping on top of everything.

One element is that for some women, it seems perfectly normal for them to be the lower earner and therefore give up work when children come along. Some women I've spoken to have even said, "of course, when we had little Tommy, it made sense for me to stay home as Pete is the higher earner". As if it's a given.

This leads to the gradual and insidious expectation that she then does all the domestics and children, while the man earns the crust.

When women start earning and out-earning their husbands, they simply won't have the time to pick it all up.

If I had a wife or husband who only worked 3 days a week I'd expect her/him to do way more than me in regards to the children and home.

I never understand the double standards on Mumsnet where it seems perfectly okay to have multiple threads about male violence and how most violence is carried out by men and no one is allowed to say “it’s not all men” and yet whenever anyone dares to say anything like the op - which I think is equally true in real life, it’s fairly rare to find a man as unselfish as a woman - people leap to say “not all men”. Might seem an odd comparison but it is similar. Yeah it’s not all men for either one but I have yet to meet any men as caring and unselfish as the women I know. They’re usually them first and everyone else afterwards.

And let's face it, a lot of boys are being raised without any male role model at all.

People need to a be a LOT more prudent and careful about their reproductive choices.

Yep, boys without decent father figures get a warped sense of how masculinity should be.

Even in stable marriages, decent father figures are in short supply.

It takes a decent father figure and a decent mother figure to teach a boy how to be a decent man. You can substitute male role model and female role model, not everyone has access to a mum and a dad . Without both, all you can do is muddle through and hope.

Speaking from my own situation, I know that as hard ass I am about everything being equal here at home. There are somethings my DH points out to me that show the real difference in perceived ‘roles’

example, just this morning I was rushing around this morning glueing-sticking-beautifying the nursery teddies journal (bastard had come home for the weekend 🐻 🔪) and DH was laughing at the effort I was going to. I showed him the other entries in the journal and he said “god these moms really try and outdo each other don’t they” it was yet another lightbulb moment that it truly is just the moms that do this shit as WE are worried how it reflects on us. We need to stop, men don’t give a fucking shit so why do we - (full disclosure - I still made sure I did a ‘pawsome’ job on the journal entry even after the eureka moment) sorry 😅

I don’t disagree with men needing to be better / women should raise their standards, but let’s get real:
If every single woman would only date, marry and have kids with decent men, many most women would end up remaining single and childless. There just aren’t enough good men to all (for those women who want a man / child) women.

It's the same like with everything though. Demand will lead the supply. If they know they can't just wing it, they will do better like the better ones did.
It's not like they are incapable of doing things. They just often simy don't have to

Dp has friends who are very involved in sharing the load (Home).
However, they're not happy.

It's the same like with everything though. Demand will lead the supply. If they know they can't just wing it, they will do better like the better ones did.

It's not like they are incapable of doing things. They just often simy don't have to

I can’t really see men getting better just for women.
They’ve had millenial and they only seem to get worse.
And now with free sex and porn and angry men with microphone spouting misogyny, motivation is going to be all time low.
China has more men than women, so they kidnap women from other close by countries and you can figure out the rest….
They don’t / won’t change. For better at least.

A lot of the time it goes like this:

A 20-something couple rent somewhere together, both working. She puts the laundry on because it is no problem - only a small job. He pushes the hoover round, a very 'visible' job, and maybe he enjoys cooking, and she sees him "doing his bit". They get a lot of takeaways because they can afford it. They might be a bit sloppy with cleaning and dusting, or she will do it if she "doesn't mind" and likes a clean home. There is no garden to keep tidy, no DIY to do, etc. The workload is minimal, helped by the fact they are both out at work all day so the place doesn't get as 'lived in'.

Then biology kicks in and she starts to think about a baby. They have the discussions. He doesn't want to lose his comfortable set up and regular sex, so he goes along with it, mostly because it is the 'next logical step' (with or without a marriage taking place, with or without getting a mortgage together). He quite likes the idea of 'being a dad' as a status, and imagines playing football in the park with a mini-me who dotes on him. He might think he understands the reality of nappies and lack of sleep, but actually he has not got a clue.
(To be fair, neither does she.)

Women tend to believe that men 'want a baby' in the same way that women do. Sadly that is rarely the case - the hormones are just not the same. A lot of the time he might quite like the idea, or is at best ambivalent, but he knows if he wants to keep her he has to show delight in her becoming a mother.

Then baby arrives and a nuclear bomb goes off in their relationship. He doesn't know what has hit him, doesn't like how this is all turning out, and tries to cling to their old lifestyle. He resents the way she is always tired, no fun any more, they are short of money and she isn't earning as much, or is paying for childcare, so he resents having to pay for all the treats they used to enjoy. Where did that lovely, carefree 20-something woman go?

So it all falls apart.
If the baby is lucky, the parents work through it, dad starts to grow up, and they stay together.
If the baby is unlucky, dad leaves.
If the baby is really unlucky, dad stays but becomes ever more abusive.

It's hard. I can't call colleagues out on it (why does X's partner expect her to do all housework or why does Y think he can't buy birthday cards or Z isn't allowed to put the heating on when she is WFH). I'd look nuts commenting on their relationships. I know two couples in equal relationships and that's it.

My ex was awful and all I can do is make sure my DS and DD know that sort of attitude isn't acceptable anymore. They never see their dad so no toxic-masculinity in this house.

It's because most men aren't people pleasers, they are good at making life easy for themselves and women need to adopt the same attitude. Women are fighting a losing battle trying to get men to think and behave as they do.
Partnerships these days seem to be a constant competition as to who does the most, it causes alot of arguments and resentment.
You can see why so many women choose to live on their own and happily stay on their own. Thank God we have that choice/option now.

I'm not going to do the "not all men ..." line, because it doesn't help.
I'm not going to do the "but there's plenty of women who ..." line because it doesn't help either.
It's awful that any men would behave as described, and it's also awful that any women would follow suit in some kind of race to the bottom.

But I am going to ask why there aren't more threads about the ones (men and women) who are reliable, kind, considerate, helpful, love their partners and their children and are genuinely doing their level best. I am going to ask how the people who respond to all those threads about the awful ones with their stories about their experience of good partners, are treated by the others on those threads who are intent on enjoying a good old pile on. And I am going to ask whether what is read on these fora is genuinely representative of most people's lives, or whether the availability heuristic is playing a part in the OPs perspective?

My partner is lovely. There are better days and worse days, but in general, I wouldn't swap my worst day with them for a hundred of my best days without them.

And for those buying into the trope about men having it far too easy ... there's some pretty stark statistics about suicide rates that you might want to look up. I know it's easy to get upset and vent on the internet, but it's also important to be kind, and to be thankful for all the things that aren't awful.

I am at the point now where I think women should start pushing for emancipation from this male dominated society that we have had foisted upon us. If there was a women only town, city or island I would be off there in a heartbeart. I’m so sick of it all.

The majority of these women with feckless husbands/partners have chosen to procreate with useless men. Stop choosing useless men!

I love my DH but I know if we had children I'd end up with the lion's share of the caring or arguing about it. Fortunately we're not having children. He pulls his weight around the house, he takes time off for more vet appointments than I do but faced with a sick screaming child I can imagine him passing them to me out of frustration.

I think some of it is also employer expectation. My DH is fortunate that he can work remotely and his manager is married to a surgeon so regularly takes time off to look after his children. It's not the norm for many male managers so there's less understanding.

In my most recently ended relationship, I'd say it's because he has for years watched his poor wonderful mother tie herself in knots while the rest of the family chill.
Same in my other exs - the mother was everything to everyone, never complained, endlessly kind etc.
I think in my ideal world women need to say NO and men need to stop exploiting kindness

Think you should go back to Reddit...

It’s not like these men show who they really are right away is it? They always lie, pretend they are somebody they are not, and innocent, naive women fall for it every time.

We as a gender are being played. Played in the workplace, played in the political realm, played in our relationships, played in every aspect of our existence.

We shouldn’t stand for it.

I have MN to thank for avoiding this! I avidly read AIBU and the relationship boards in my 20s so by the time I met potential DHs I knew all the pitfalls and the things to check for/insist on before moving in together, marrying and agreeing to have kids.

it meant I lost a couple of men I liked but that was relatively early into relationships so at least I didn’t waste too much time, and meant I could free myself up for someone actually worthy of starting a family with. Honestly it should be mandatory reading for young women!

I think education about healthy relationships should be part for the national curriculum, but knowledge is power as they say and we know who wouldn’t want the status quo to change!

@timewp you should be so fucking proud of yourself! I know it's not much solace when you're knackered and looking after two kids, but you're amazing. My ex left me when my daughter was 10 months old and I was just going back to work! She's two now and it's a little easier. I know people who have a full time nanny and still find the mother load hard. I hope you get some time to rest and recharge xxx

Also, this doesn't just relate to the home! Where I work, some of the men (not all) get away with doing SFA! They get let off and have their ego stroked by my female bosses. Apparently I have to find ways to adapt to their working style, rather than someone actually pulling them up for being lazy and disorganised! The patriarchy is in full force in 2023

Thank you so much! You’re amazing too. Does ex see child or pay maintenance? My ex barely sees the kids and is refusing to pay maintenance so in the process of getting that all sorted.

I frequently wonder if these feckless men are the norm rather than the exception but IRL I don’t know a single man like this or a woman who would put up with these cocklodgers. I have to remind myself of this when MN makes me feel like I hate men.

My circle of female friends all earn significantly more than their husbands and I wonder if the fact that we’re not financially dependent on our husbands means we’re less likely to put up with unacceptable behaviour. I just don’t know. Whatever the reason, I will certainly be teaching my daughter the importance of financial independence.