So angry at all these threads on useless and selfish men

[Winterday1991]

Off the back of the thread where the H refuses to care for his sick child so the OP can get some much needed rest as he is on annual leave from work 😡. I am seriously fed up of reading threads like this, why are so many men so selfish?

Why is it always women who have to do the lions share of caring, pulling themselves in all direction whilst their male counterparts glide through life uninterrupted? Why is it always women who carry the mental load for family life and the men just show up. Why is always women responsible for maintaining the household?

Even in the 21st century, why do so many men get such a bloody easy ride, whilst often their poor wives/partners are running around like headless chickens keeping on top of everything.

Quite. I have a household calendar set up that tracks everything and it takes very little effort to populate it and keep it up to date. At the risk of being flamed I get the impression that the way 'mental load' is discussed on here at times one would think some people are running a FTSE 100 company. Talk of 'managing the household finances' as if they were running a stately home just seems to get out of hand. I get it, if you are on a low income and tight budget then more effort goes into making sure every pound is stretched but for many those utility bills/TV license/internet etc are on direct debits ticking over in the background. I tend to do an annual review of all outgoings and check what other options are available to see if I can save some money on car insurance or whatever. I download bank statements into a spreadsheet and can see how much is being spent on and what and can be more disciplined or cut back accordingly etc. That takes a few hours a year! It also seems organising dental appointments are some kind of Herculean task in Mumsnetland. I just book the next appointment for 6 months time while at the dentist reception and again pop it in the calendar, no need to 'remember' to do anything. Same with car servicing or MOTs.

There was a thread last year where people were listing what was on their mental load list and it just became laughable after a few pages. One particular gem was 'checking local facebook groups to see if anything is affecting the family', talk about creating a rod for your own back.

@DanseAvecLesLoup

I just book the next appointment for 6 months time while at the dentist reception and again pop it in the calendar, no need to 'remember' to do anything. Same with car servicing or MOTs.

Same here. "Do it and forget it" is my mantra which is much more efficient. By listing things in an app or calendar, it also means that OH can see what's been done, what needs doing, etc. It's no surprise that some mothers feel they have everything to do if they don't have a "system" that their OH can participate with and which relies on their memory.

Way to make women struggling feel better sisters!

It’s a thing.

Nothing worse than another woman in thrall to the patriarchy.

We should be lifting each other up instead of doing men’s work for them and allowing them to browbeat us into running society for them.

@Badbadbunny @DanseAvecLesLoup

I just book the next appointment for 6 months time while at the dentist reception and again pop it in the calendar, no need to 'remember' to do anything. Same with car servicing or MOTs.

Up to a point. But the whole point about the "default parent" role is that a lot of this is not "plannable" or something which can simply be "popped into a diary". It is a) unpredictable b) short notice and c) clashes with other urgent paid work. And the critical point for women is that they usually end up as the emergency troubleshooters, which is detrimental to their careers.

It's all very well to airily wave this away and say "I just keep on top of my diary". But being a parent involves an awful of of unscheduled and unplanned stuff which torpedoes your ability to plan anything. For example:

• Child illness
• Child emotional support
• Parent illness
• Household breakdowns/repairs which require urgent attention (waiting at home for boiler repair)
• Last minute changes to school schedules which have a knock-on effect on work schedules
• Managing unplanned and unavoidable delays to child pickups due to work/traffic etc
• Clashes between urgent work events and urgent child-related events

If you are very well paid and can outsource this its more manageable. Or if you have a genuine partnership and your spouse or partner takes an active role in managing this with you. But that is a) pretty rare and b) relies on everything working like clockwork.

In the majority of households the woman is doing all of this by default usually alongside a paid job and men do varying amounts of it but rarely as much as the woman. The critical problem here is that there is usually not enough slack in the system to deal with these last minute flashpoints/interruptions. If both parents have work commitments which clash with a child or domestic need, the person whose job is better paid or more "important" will always by default be the one whose job need is prioritised, and the one whose job is less important will have to pick this task up.

For obvious reasons that has a massively negative effect on the career of the person whose job is deemed less important (usually the woman), because they are perceived as less "reliable" and "ambitious" than their male counterparts.

Try being a single mother where there is no slack in the system at all. If there's a clash of any kind between a professional "need" and a domestic "need", the professional need will always come last.

In the context the 'mental load' discussion keeping an online household calendar that everyone can access and edit thereby not reducing yourself to relying 100% on memory is hardly being in thrall to the patriarchy, more a case of just having your shit together. Most people (men and women) in my social/work circles operate this kind of system, there are no 'I did not realise it was parents evening today' or 'oh shit I forgot to drop the car off for an MOT' moments. It's not being smug, but I shake my head sometimes when people on here complain about having to remember everything when their are free tools out there to avoid this.

It’s not just about keeping an up to date calendar as I shared above.

No but the effort and effect is quite variable isn't it?

A prime example is the workplace. We can all be doing the same job but there's always some who make a meal of everything like the sky is falling down. Contrast this with those who are cool as cucumbers.

No-one is suggesting that life had admin associated but MN loves to make it a massive thing when some of us just see it as 'stuff' and just get on with it.

@DanseAvecLesLoup

more a case of just having your shit together. Most people (men and women) in my social/work circles operate this kind of system, there are no 'I did not realise it was parents evening today' or 'oh shit I forgot to drop the car off for an MOT' moments. It's not being smug, but I shake my head sometimes when people on here complain about having to remember everything when their are free tools out there to avoid this.

Of course organisation is important but you're missing the point here.

This is all tickety-boo when you have a nice family who consult one another and put things like this into a shared planner etc. But critically this relies on both partners keeping their side of this bargain and a) not assuming by default that the non-breadwinner will do all of this and b) in a worst case scenario keeping the non breadwinner in the loop if you do this.

There are posts on here on a daily basis from women who have no idea from one day to the next where their husbands are and what they are doing because they don't consider themselves to have any obligation to keep them in the loop.

The mental load that women experience in families is largely as a result of the fact that men are not committed to playing their part in this process and its the women who are left doing the frantic juggling that's necessary to fill in the gaps.

Although on the positive side, the last few years has seen a rise in SAHD's, which suggests that the tide is turning (albeit slowly).

The more that do it, the more attitudes change. My OH WFH and does the bulk of the housework nowadays, does all the mental load stuff people talk about here and also earns about 3x more. It's just my work doesn't allow WFH as easily.

There are no complaints. Stuff just gets done.

The problem with MN sometimes is that it's a bit of an echo chamber. No doubt there are useless men but it's no conspiracy when many men are choosing to stay at home or make positive changes. That in itself is self perpetuating if children see their fathers at home doing housework etc. It's going to take time, which is no consolation for those stuck right now but things are changing.

Things are definitely changing - shared parental leave is a great example of that. My perception might be skewed because I’m the main earner and my partner is the primary parent.

That being said, there needs to be persistent change in attitudes for things to change. On many an occasion my partner has had to use the ladies toilet to change our children because that’s the only changing facility, for example (he lets staff know he is doing this obviously) - another example is “mum and baby groups”

Have you got in the family calendar a date booked to look through child's clothing and take out stuff too small?
Have you got in the family app a shared note of what to advise grandma when she asks what to buy DC?
Have you got in there a shared note of child's shoe size so when you see a bargain in the supermarket you can just buy it?
Have you got a note in there of what lunchbox items the school won't allow?

Or are these things that you 'just know' or 'just do'?

If the latter, you have mental load. Yes for some people it is not an issue as they are easily on top of it, but the point is does your partner also 'just know/do' all this stuff equally? Or are you the default parent?

And whose job is it to read notes / letters / invites and update the calendar?

It is not possible to say 'that's enough for today' when the child will suffer. (Well, it is possible - it is called child neglect).
I assume you are thinking of the type of woman who likes to live in a show home, everything polished to perfection. Either she has no children, or her children's life is miserable.

It's not child neglect to forget a biscuit or not to have prepared couscous for the child's lunch.
Our house is always in pristine condition. Because that's how DP and I like to live. These tasks are NOT all day every day.
I'll repeat what I said before if you cannot manage a PE kit and a packed lunch, an automated machine handling the physical load. Then you cannot handle a full-time high-pressure role.
Some posters are making a mountain out of a molehill, most likely due to overscheduling.

I'll repeat what I said before if you cannot manage a PE kit and a packed lunch, an automated machine handling the physical load. Then you cannot handle a full-time high-pressure role.
Some posters are making a mountain out of a molehill, most likely due to overscheduling.

It is not about what you can do, it is about whether he is also doing an equal amount.

if you cannot manage a PE kit and a packed lunch, an automated machine handling the physical load. Then you cannot handle a full-time high-pressure role.

Yeah but if its always the same person managing the PE kit, the packed lunch and the automated machine it adds up to a lot more work being done by that person and a lot more resentment.

It's nothing to do with the tasks being especially complicated or challenging. It's the sheer volume of the task list, the fact that its never finished. And if one person is expected to do all of it it adds up to effectively another (unpaid) FT job.

I disagree it's not a full-time job. If a person is at home then they should handle the home, if they work part-time then the allocation should be split accordingly.
Babies are intense but that passes.
I think sharing the mental load of buying shoes in a supermarket is just an absurd argument. Both Dp and I bring things home or make suggestions regarding his children or plans for the house, social events, and holidays, it's relaxed.
For example, we've decided due to workloads atm we're not going to pack our schedule with social obligations, trips out, and dates.
Renovations are solely handled by DP including physically doing the work, running his business in the same industry, managing his children the week they're here, and cooking and tasks like washing. He's not resentful, nor is he tired.

We have to rearrange these coming months because DP won't be able to manage as much as he has 2 intense months coming up. What were are not going to do is plow on regardless without making allowances for packed work schedules. We both know parents who have ridiculous schedules for their children-homelife. Practice for this practice for that, lessons here, lessons there.
It's perfect parenting and overscheduling.
No wonder people feel burnt out.

You cannot do it all and nor should you have to.

They all start as babies and they’d when the division starts to show, 10 years down the line it might be more straightforward but by then the resentment is there, there are also children with SEN where there is another level of metal load.

If it was a small minority of women who had this issue then there wouldn’t be daily threads about it here.

I think the issue is both parties don't appreciate the other's input.

I just set this up
I just make these arrangements
I populate the calendar
I create reminders

Why you? Why not him?

If you can't handle this, you couldn't handle a real job

Yeah, I could, because I get paid for it and it is 1000% more interesting and valued in society.

Rrrrrriiiiight. But that also highlights that the so-called "mental load" is also a substantive time load. It's not only remembering that parents' evening is today, but modifying your schedule to GO to parents' evening. And most of the time, if the schedule is tight, it's the woman whose schedule is modified so she can go. Some people work 9-5 jobs, but to get the really good money, many times a worker must be willing to be available for longer hours, or to do last minute work, or to travel. And when work conflicts with a child's needs, most of the time it's the woman's job that is sacrificed: the woman who cancels her workday and picks up the ill child from school, the woman who cancels her work to meet with the principal because her child was bullied at school, the woman who goes to sports day during the workday, the woman who can't take on the higher profile project at work because it requires that you DON'T cancel on a moment's notice, etc. And despite Mark's claims that men have to do so much of remembering to vacuum the car etc, the truth is that if something mechanical breaks down in the home, it's usually the woman who is tasked with things like waiting at home for the repairman to arrive.

Also, let's just not talk about the men who interrupt the woman every two seconds, even if they DO some of the kid chores like taking little Bobby to soccer: "Where's Bobby's soccer gear?" "Where's the collapsible chair?" "Where's the game schedule, I think the game is on a different field today?" "Where do I pick up Bobby's friend William?" and on and on and on.

This sort of post confuses me. The mental load is NOT remembering things. The mental load is being responsible for putting it in the calendar, then realising that the other arrangement need to change as a result, then making all those changes and 9/10 also ensuring that everyone else has the right instructions etc.

So, parents evening, for example, for me, usually involves:

1. receiving an email from the school re parent evening
2. Logging onto a system to book a slot with the teacher
3. Inevitably there are very few slots. So I then have to figure out which slots we can do, which probably involves moving other things around and/or arranging childcare etc.
4. Make sure DH knows that I've now made this arrangement as the only one available so he has to cancel whatever he's doing/ensure he's home on time/ pick up kids/ whatever.

I find this annoying but in this house, DH has similarly irritating tasks that he takes on and has to sort out and which I am completely absent from so it works out. But for a lot of women, they do ALL of these tasks and all the work around them. It's not just a case of remembering what's in the diary.

There is a reason that many executives have full time assistants. Because the organisation and background work to keep things running takes time and effort. I have a very part time PA without whom my work life would fall apart. Lots of men have pretty much full time PAs at home and don't even realise it.

And most of the time, if the schedule is tight, it's the woman whose schedule is modified so she can go.

Exactly. This is where women end up being really shafted. It's always the woman who has to be the domestic first responder. Even if her job is far more important than his.

I call this the "supermarket worker" theory.

If a woman works in a supermarket and her male partner has a higher paying office job, she is the default person for last minute things, sickness etc because her job pays less and therefore it must be less important.

if a man works in a supermarket and his female partner has the higher paying office job, she is the default person for last minute things, sickness etc because her job is more flexible and the supermarket worker could not possibly let down his colleagues/manager when he has a shift already booked.

I have recently taken on a team manager role for DS' sports team. The coach is lovely, but has a high flying job in the city and a busy family life. The fact that I run my own business, am the main breadwinner and have a busy family life of my own etc appears to have passed everyone by. He turns up for training once a week and a match once a fortnight. I have to BEG him to select the players ahead of time so that the parents know if they need to turn up.

I do everything else. Liaise with parents, ensure everyone has kit, schlepp equipment around, sort out new players and their fees, follow up re our constantly changing training schedule, fill out forms for our league etc etc etc. Half the time, he selects the team but doesn't even bother to make a note of who he has selected so I turn up with a bloody team list for him.

I'm starting to get really really resentful.

This is mental load. It's the organising and adapting in the background to make things happen. Booking a dentist appointment 6 months ahead is definitely the right way to do it and it's what Dh does for the DC routinely. But when DS has a weird tooth crisis and an appointment has to be made last minute, it feels like a mammoth task to try to arrange it around existing activities, work schedules, other childcare and, inevitably, a dentist with limited availability.