Page 17 | So angry at all these threads on useless and selfish men

Winterday1991 · 2023-01-30T15:31:15+00:00

Off the back of the thread where the H refuses to care for his sick child so the OP can get some much needed rest as he is on annual leave from work 😡. I am seriously fed up of reading threads like this, why are so many men so selfish? Why is it always women who have to do the lions share of caring, pulling themselves in all direction whilst their male counterparts glide through life uninterrupted? Why is it always women who carry the mental load for family life and the men just show up. Why is always women responsible for maintaining the household? Even in the 21st century, why do so many men get such a bloody easy ride, whilst often their poor wives/partners are running around like headless chickens keeping on top of everything.

GinClassHeroes · 31/01/2023 20:47

Stillcountingbeans · 31/01/2023 20:42

@Mark19735And I think that 'mental load', whilst an interesting concept, plays no part in any value generation and is therefore also low-value. [...]What I am curious about is how this forum believes any man can survive as a single man or a same-sex couple, seeing as they are so incapable of dealing with complex mental loads and the physical graft of shopping and loading the dishwasher. But then, any confounding variables can just be ignored when attacking the patriarchy, right?
You are mistaken that the mental load is of low value. Most of it is to do with arranging things for the benefit of the child(ren), which is why single men or same-sex male couples have no issues with the mental load.
It is easy to fend for yourself, pay your bills, wash your own clothes, buy your own shopping, or even to do bits of this for an adult partner.

It is much harder to do all the thinking required to run a child's life. Then double or triple that for two or three children.

Monitor their health, make dentist appointments, book haircuts, check what shoes and clothes need replacing, know what their current shoe size is, know if they fit the standard clothes sizes for their age range or if you have to buy larger or smaller ages, decide what to do with too-small clothes, know what their interests are so you can choose their toys and gifts or advise relatives and grandparents, know which toys they no longer need, decide how to dispose of these, ensure clean uniform is always ready, and PE kit on the right day, know what day they have to go to school in a 'book day' costume, or non-uniform day, or the day the class is going to the zoo so they have to be at school an hour early, know what day they have to take in cookery supplies, ensure food they like is available for packed lunches, and know what the school's policy is on packed lunch items, or alternatively remember to pay for the school lunches, know on what days their after-school clubs are, on what days their out-of-school clubs are, and when the fees for these need paying, what their weekend bookings are, know when to drop off, and when to collect, and if they need to take anything like a birthday present, and remember to RSVP the birthday invitation, and on and on and on it goes.

This is without considering any mental load relating to the general running of the household.

This mental work is neither low-value nor unnecessary.

Anyone who thinks the mental load is “low value” is probably not responsible for the mental load of anyone but themselves.

It’s easy to see the benefits of other tasks - those with earning responsibility see money in the bank, those with childcare responsibility see pictures of happy children, those with housework responsibility see a tidy house. The value of the “mental load” only becomes apparent when it isn’t done.

MiaMoor · 31/01/2023 20:47

Stillcountingbeans · 31/01/2023 20:42

@Mark19735And I think that 'mental load', whilst an interesting concept, plays no part in any value generation and is therefore also low-value. [...]What I am curious about is how this forum believes any man can survive as a single man or a same-sex couple, seeing as they are so incapable of dealing with complex mental loads and the physical graft of shopping and loading the dishwasher. But then, any confounding variables can just be ignored when attacking the patriarchy, right?
You are mistaken that the mental load is of low value. Most of it is to do with arranging things for the benefit of the child(ren), which is why single men or same-sex male couples have no issues with the mental load.
It is easy to fend for yourself, pay your bills, wash your own clothes, buy your own shopping, or even to do bits of this for an adult partner.

It is much harder to do all the thinking required to run a child's life. Then double or triple that for two or three children.

Monitor their health, make dentist appointments, book haircuts, check what shoes and clothes need replacing, know what their current shoe size is, know if they fit the standard clothes sizes for their age range or if you have to buy larger or smaller ages, decide what to do with too-small clothes, know what their interests are so you can choose their toys and gifts or advise relatives and grandparents, know which toys they no longer need, decide how to dispose of these, ensure clean uniform is always ready, and PE kit on the right day, know what day they have to go to school in a 'book day' costume, or non-uniform day, or the day the class is going to the zoo so they have to be at school an hour early, know what day they have to take in cookery supplies, ensure food they like is available for packed lunches, and know what the school's policy is on packed lunch items, or alternatively remember to pay for the school lunches, know on what days their after-school clubs are, on what days their out-of-school clubs are, and when the fees for these need paying, what their weekend bookings are, know when to drop off, and when to collect, and if they need to take anything like a birthday present, and remember to RSVP the birthday invitation, and on and on and on it goes.

This is without considering any mental load relating to the general running of the household.

This mental work is neither low-value nor unnecessary.

Exactly. Mark is proving the point perfectly. I’m sure that wasn’t his intention, but it’s fun to see 😂

Stillcountingbeans · 31/01/2023 20:48

@Mark19735

That men doing 100% of their day job counts for nothing and the counter gets set to zero when they walk through the door.

Of course, because the woman has also been doing her day job, and/or doing housework and/or looking after children all day (which is actually work). So her counter is also set to zero as soon as the man arrives home (assuming she gets home first).

So they should both do the same amount of work in the evenings, and get equal amounts of 'leisure' or 'recovery' time.

Stillcountingbeans · 31/01/2023 21:01

@Mark19735

Regarding male suicide:

Link to ONS:
www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/articles/whoismostatriskofsuicide/2017-09-07

"Relationship breakdown can also contribute to suicide risk. The greatest risk is among divorced men, who in 2015 were almost three times more likely to end their lives than men who were married or in a civil partnership."

I think it to be quite telling that men are less likely to commit suicide whilst remaining married, and more likely to commit suicide after divorce.
The solution is not to encourage women to stay married to men.

Alaldlccmemsjzja · 31/01/2023 21:12

Oh god is mark the magnificent still telling women that it is indeed men who are the victims in their shitshows of a relationship?

SandraCumin · 31/01/2023 21:20

Stillcountingbeans · 31/01/2023 21:01

@Mark19735

Regarding male suicide:

Link to ONS:
www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/articles/whoismostatriskofsuicide/2017-09-07

"Relationship breakdown can also contribute to suicide risk. The greatest risk is among divorced men, who in 2015 were almost three times more likely to end their lives than men who were married or in a civil partnership."

I think it to be quite telling that men are less likely to commit suicide whilst remaining married, and more likely to commit suicide after divorce.
The solution is not to encourage women to stay married to men.

Anyone with a brain would be able to work that out. Think of any man you know that seemingly has their sh*t together and I’ll show you a woman behind it.

Mark19735 · 31/01/2023 21:22

Stillcountingbeans · 31/01/2023 20:42

@Mark19735And I think that 'mental load', whilst an interesting concept, plays no part in any value generation and is therefore also low-value. [...]What I am curious about is how this forum believes any man can survive as a single man or a same-sex couple, seeing as they are so incapable of dealing with complex mental loads and the physical graft of shopping and loading the dishwasher. But then, any confounding variables can just be ignored when attacking the patriarchy, right?
You are mistaken that the mental load is of low value. Most of it is to do with arranging things for the benefit of the child(ren), which is why single men or same-sex male couples have no issues with the mental load.
It is easy to fend for yourself, pay your bills, wash your own clothes, buy your own shopping, or even to do bits of this for an adult partner.

It is much harder to do all the thinking required to run a child's life. Then double or triple that for two or three children.

Monitor their health, make dentist appointments, book haircuts, check what shoes and clothes need replacing, know what their current shoe size is, know if they fit the standard clothes sizes for their age range or if you have to buy larger or smaller ages, decide what to do with too-small clothes, know what their interests are so you can choose their toys and gifts or advise relatives and grandparents, know which toys they no longer need, decide how to dispose of these, ensure clean uniform is always ready, and PE kit on the right day, know what day they have to go to school in a 'book day' costume, or non-uniform day, or the day the class is going to the zoo so they have to be at school an hour early, know what day they have to take in cookery supplies, ensure food they like is available for packed lunches, and know what the school's policy is on packed lunch items, or alternatively remember to pay for the school lunches, know on what days their after-school clubs are, on what days their out-of-school clubs are, and when the fees for these need paying, what their weekend bookings are, know when to drop off, and when to collect, and if they need to take anything like a birthday present, and remember to RSVP the birthday invitation, and on and on and on it goes.

This is without considering any mental load relating to the general running of the household.

This mental work is neither low-value nor unnecessary.

Gosh, it does sound exhausting. Almost as hard as running a car ...

Monitor its mileage
Make MOT appointments
Take it to the car wash
Check whether the tyres need pumping up
Know what the correct tyre size and pressure is
Know whether it takes diesel or unleaded
Decide what to do about that stain on the back seat
Know what coupling the towbar electrics are based on
Know where the V5C is kept
Decide whether to vacuum it
Ensure it is clean and fully fuelled
Know the best route to drive on any given day
Know what detours can be used if there is an emergency, or a traffic jam, or a police chase, or a flood
Remember which insurance company is used, and when the renewal is due
Ensure money is available for Road Fund Licence and Insurance
Know the Highway Code, or alternatively remember to attend any speed awareness workshops
Pay any parking charges, toll charges, congestion charges, crossing charges
Remember where you parked it
, and on and on and on it goes.

Now imaging running two cars and a caravan and double or even triple it.

Phew! That mental load. There's more to it than meets the eye when you really spell it out like that.

Now, have I renewed my season ticket yet? When's my train? Oh, it's only 7:40am ... haven't even started work yet ... where does the day go?

LOL.

Thepeopleversuswork · 31/01/2023 21:29

What I am curious about is how this forum believes any man can survive as a single man or a same-sex couple, seeing as they are so incapable of dealing with complex mental loads and the physical graft of shopping and loading the dishwasher.

Because single men and men in same sex couples are (almost) never responsible for looking after children's needs.

As @Stillcountingbeans points out the mental load (or "project management" as it should really be called) of a household is complex, detailed, stressful, relentless and quite often done on top of a day job as well. Oh, and unpaid.

And @Mark19735 if you think it plays no part in value creation I'm curious as to how you were brought up and educated? Presumably there was someone in your household when you were a child (and I'm going to take a wild guess here that it was a woman) who managed all the admin relating to your education, your being fed and kept healthy and allowing you to develop to the point that you were able to engage in these online discussions? No value whatsoever then....

Thepeopleversuswork · 31/01/2023 21:30

@Mark19735

Gosh, it does sound exhausting. Almost as hard as running a car ..

Last time I looked running a car wasn't critical to the survival of the human race...

Stillcountingbeans · 31/01/2023 21:32

Mark19735 · 31/01/2023 21:22

Gosh, it does sound exhausting. Almost as hard as running a car ...

Monitor its mileage
Make MOT appointments
Take it to the car wash
Check whether the tyres need pumping up
Know what the correct tyre size and pressure is
Know whether it takes diesel or unleaded
Decide what to do about that stain on the back seat
Know what coupling the towbar electrics are based on
Know where the V5C is kept
Decide whether to vacuum it
Ensure it is clean and fully fuelled
Know the best route to drive on any given day
Know what detours can be used if there is an emergency, or a traffic jam, or a police chase, or a flood
Remember which insurance company is used, and when the renewal is due
Ensure money is available for Road Fund Licence and Insurance
Know the Highway Code, or alternatively remember to attend any speed awareness workshops
Pay any parking charges, toll charges, congestion charges, crossing charges
Remember where you parked it
, and on and on and on it goes.

Now imaging running two cars and a caravan and double or even triple it.

Phew! That mental load. There's more to it than meets the eye when you really spell it out like that.

Now, have I renewed my season ticket yet? When's my train? Oh, it's only 7:40am ... haven't even started work yet ... where does the day go?

LOL.

Show quote history

The difference is that the car is not a human being, so it won't mind if it is dirty, broken, and has no fuel in it.

I don't believe you are arguing here in good faith (you are trolling), so I won't bother responding to you any further.

MiaMoor · 31/01/2023 21:41

Oh dear Mark, your misogyny is showing.

Mark19735 · 31/01/2023 22:32

I wasn't trolling, I was poking fun. That list of car-related chores, whilst real, has never caused anyone any great angst - male or female. But the comments about children being living, sentient things are telling. The work isn't actually any harder or more time-consuming - but how the person doing the work feels about it is different. "Critical to the survival of the human race" I think was the quote ... (no delusions of grandeur there much at all - I'm sure the species will crack on just fine) ... but the sentiment is one I understand. It feels more important and it's frustrating that it isn't treated as more important. So ...

If running a household to your exacting standards really is important ... perhaps it should be treated as a higher priority?
If holding down a day job as well as running a household is too much, perhaps people should be willing to make do with less?
When your capacity to do any more has been reached, perhaps you should acknowledge that you've done enough?

That means being comfortable with the idea that a lower level of income is good enough. The thing is, I've not read any posts claiming the root cause of the problem is that the non-stay-at-home partner works too hard, and should do less in their workplace in order to redirect their energy and attention to the home front. I've only read complaints that they don't work hard enough when they get home. The demand is always for more, not less. And very often people, both men and women, don't have any more to give. I wonder what jobs the women here do? How many are refuse collectors, getting up at 4:00am and walking 10 miles per day in all weathers? How many are welders, or mechanics, or carpet-fitters, or scaffolders, or fire-fighters, or crane operators? The thing is ... the husbands you decry as lazy are frequently the ones doing these jobs. 23 times more likely to be killed or maimed in an industrial accident. Double the overall risk of suffering a heart attack - but actually 9 times the relative risk during their working years. 4 times more likely to take their own life. But never actually being good enough for the people posting on these threads. I can see why leaving might seem preferable to some.

Square that circle, and the OP will find the answer.

SandraCumin · 31/01/2023 22:44

Mark19735 · 31/01/2023 22:32

I wasn't trolling, I was poking fun. That list of car-related chores, whilst real, has never caused anyone any great angst - male or female. But the comments about children being living, sentient things are telling. The work isn't actually any harder or more time-consuming - but how the person doing the work feels about it is different. "Critical to the survival of the human race" I think was the quote ... (no delusions of grandeur there much at all - I'm sure the species will crack on just fine) ... but the sentiment is one I understand. It feels more important and it's frustrating that it isn't treated as more important. So ...

If running a household to your exacting standards really is important ... perhaps it should be treated as a higher priority?
If holding down a day job as well as running a household is too much, perhaps people should be willing to make do with less?
When your capacity to do any more has been reached, perhaps you should acknowledge that you've done enough?

That means being comfortable with the idea that a lower level of income is good enough. The thing is, I've not read any posts claiming the root cause of the problem is that the non-stay-at-home partner works too hard, and should do less in their workplace in order to redirect their energy and attention to the home front. I've only read complaints that they don't work hard enough when they get home. The demand is always for more, not less. And very often people, both men and women, don't have any more to give. I wonder what jobs the women here do? How many are refuse collectors, getting up at 4:00am and walking 10 miles per day in all weathers? How many are welders, or mechanics, or carpet-fitters, or scaffolders, or fire-fighters, or crane operators? The thing is ... the husbands you decry as lazy are frequently the ones doing these jobs. 23 times more likely to be killed or maimed in an industrial accident. Double the overall risk of suffering a heart attack - but actually 9 times the relative risk during their working years. 4 times more likely to take their own life. But never actually being good enough for the people posting on these threads. I can see why leaving might seem preferable to some.

Square that circle, and the OP will find the answer.

Plenty of women do those kind of jobs, the only reason they are mostly occupied by men is because of the culture that has been fostered in those professions. A culture of misogyny, locker-room rhetoric and bullying of anything (or anyone) deemed non masculine.

Youraccountisnolongervalid · 31/01/2023 23:10

Ah Mark and all the poor menz.

NocturnalClocks · 31/01/2023 23:37

Johnduttonsbuttocks · 31/01/2023 20:26

Mark carries on thinking anyone is listening to him...😄

🤣🤣🤣

Mark19735 · 31/01/2023 23:57

Laugh it up ... been name-checked or quoted nine times since then. Does anyone know how to turn these blasted alerts off? Keeps interrupting my YouTube videos. I do love George Michael.

NocturnalClocks · 01/02/2023 00:45

Awww bless, so cute that you counted up the people who replied to your posts, whatever nonsense they contained. Did you manage to get any likes on fb or instagram today?

Apparently there are some male specimens so unworthy and desperate that they'll continually insert themselves into women's conversations just to get some attention. It's heartbreaking really.

Link just in case somebody needs it:

www.samaritans.org

aloris · 01/02/2023 00:57

Mark19735 · 31/01/2023 21:22

Gosh, it does sound exhausting. Almost as hard as running a car ...

Monitor its mileage
Make MOT appointments
Take it to the car wash
Check whether the tyres need pumping up
Know what the correct tyre size and pressure is
Know whether it takes diesel or unleaded
Decide what to do about that stain on the back seat
Know what coupling the towbar electrics are based on
Know where the V5C is kept
Decide whether to vacuum it
Ensure it is clean and fully fuelled
Know the best route to drive on any given day
Know what detours can be used if there is an emergency, or a traffic jam, or a police chase, or a flood
Remember which insurance company is used, and when the renewal is due
Ensure money is available for Road Fund Licence and Insurance
Know the Highway Code, or alternatively remember to attend any speed awareness workshops
Pay any parking charges, toll charges, congestion charges, crossing charges
Remember where you parked it
, and on and on and on it goes.

Now imaging running two cars and a caravan and double or even triple it.

Phew! That mental load. There's more to it than meets the eye when you really spell it out like that.

Now, have I renewed my season ticket yet? When's my train? Oh, it's only 7:40am ... haven't even started work yet ... where does the day go?

LOL.

Show quote history

The above stupid post is why sex differentiation evolved. Hint: if you don't bother to vacuum your car, it won't die. Cars and vulnerable living beings: they are not the same category of thing.

If the survival of children were left up to the sex that came up with this nonsense, the human race would have gone extinct thousands of years ago.

aloris · 01/02/2023 01:02

"I don't think that housework is 'women's work', but I do think it is low-value, menial, and poorly paid."

Well duh. That is exactly why men won't do it under any circumstances. Because high value people (men) should do high value work, and low value people (women) should do low value work. Hence, men will only put effort into their paid work and will always avoid housework, because they see themselves as high value people and women as low value people. Their priority is not that they love their wife or their children, but that they retain the financial power in the relationship, and the ability to label their wife as a low value person whom they can treat like dirt because (see above) she is low value.

Thank you for showing us the truth about the inner narcissism of men in such stark relief.

Howaboutthisonehenry · 01/02/2023 07:18

Mark19735 · 31/01/2023 21:22

Gosh, it does sound exhausting. Almost as hard as running a car ...

Monitor its mileage
Make MOT appointments
Take it to the car wash
Check whether the tyres need pumping up
Know what the correct tyre size and pressure is
Know whether it takes diesel or unleaded
Decide what to do about that stain on the back seat
Know what coupling the towbar electrics are based on
Know where the V5C is kept
Decide whether to vacuum it
Ensure it is clean and fully fuelled
Know the best route to drive on any given day
Know what detours can be used if there is an emergency, or a traffic jam, or a police chase, or a flood
Remember which insurance company is used, and when the renewal is due
Ensure money is available for Road Fund Licence and Insurance
Know the Highway Code, or alternatively remember to attend any speed awareness workshops
Pay any parking charges, toll charges, congestion charges, crossing charges
Remember where you parked it
, and on and on and on it goes.

Now imaging running two cars and a caravan and double or even triple it.

Phew! That mental load. There's more to it than meets the eye when you really spell it out like that.

Now, have I renewed my season ticket yet? When's my train? Oh, it's only 7:40am ... haven't even started work yet ... where does the day go?

LOL.

Show quote history

🤣🤣🤣 Are you Alan Partridge? The lack of self awareness is simply genius! Love it!

Know whether it take diesel or unleaded? 😂😂 this sounds like the world’s
most padded out CV!!

Johnduttonsbuttocks · 01/02/2023 08:54

this sounds like the world’s most padded out CV!!

😁

Stillcountingbeans · 01/02/2023 09:22

Mark says: The thing is, I've not read any posts claiming the root cause of the problem is that the non-stay-at-home partner works too hard, and should do less in their workplace in order to redirect their energy and attention to the home front.

Actually I did suggest that very thing several pages back:
Mark: but he accepts that he has entered into a twenty+ year commitment, so he knuckles down, works harder than ever before, goes for promotions, and just accepts that the early starts and long commutes and all that stress are worth it because he loves his family dearly.
Me: If he really loved them, he would prioritise being at home, and give up the job with the long commute, take his share of parental leave in the first year, and thereafter share all the school runs, nursery closure days, child-off-sick days, etc. As well as doing his 50% of household tasks and mental work.

Mark is so sure he is right, so full of his own ideas, and so unwilling to reconsider his own position, that he doesn't listen (read) properly. There is no persuading him. Argument is futile. He reminds me of so many men in this respect - just totally unwilling to actually listen to women.

Stillcountingbeans · 01/02/2023 09:36

When your capacity to do any more has been reached, perhaps you should acknowledge that you've done enough?

Even if you stop the physical work, and leave the laundry unfinished and the kitchen a mess (thereby piling up more work and compounding tomorrow's difficulties), even if you just sit on the sofa, the mental work doesn't stop.

If I ignore that my child has PE tomorrow, because I have 'done enough' today, how is that fair on the child? They risk embarrassment or a disciplinary consequence. If I don't bother to go shopping, the child may end up with two stale biscuits and a shrivelled apple in their lunch box.
It is caring for the child that causes the mental load and the extra tasks to be done. It is not possible to say 'that's enough for today' when the child will suffer. (Well, it is possible - it is called child neglect).

I assume you are thinking of the type of woman who likes to live in a show home, everything polished to perfection. Either she has no children, or her children's life is miserable.

The work isn't actually any harder or more time-consuming - but how the person doing the work feels about it is different. "Critical to the survival of the human race" I think was the quote ... (no delusions of grandeur there much at all - I'm sure the species will crack on just fine)
Of course raising the next generation is critical to the survival of the human race. We are talking about women's work collectively. If all women just couldn't be bothered, then most of the children would not survive.

You are thinking of yourself and one woman as an individual couple, not thinking about the bigger picture in society.

Badbadbunny · 01/02/2023 10:02

Stillcountingbeans · 31/01/2023 20:42

@Mark19735And I think that 'mental load', whilst an interesting concept, plays no part in any value generation and is therefore also low-value. [...]What I am curious about is how this forum believes any man can survive as a single man or a same-sex couple, seeing as they are so incapable of dealing with complex mental loads and the physical graft of shopping and loading the dishwasher. But then, any confounding variables can just be ignored when attacking the patriarchy, right?
You are mistaken that the mental load is of low value. Most of it is to do with arranging things for the benefit of the child(ren), which is why single men or same-sex male couples have no issues with the mental load.
It is easy to fend for yourself, pay your bills, wash your own clothes, buy your own shopping, or even to do bits of this for an adult partner.

It is much harder to do all the thinking required to run a child's life. Then double or triple that for two or three children.

Monitor their health, make dentist appointments, book haircuts, check what shoes and clothes need replacing, know what their current shoe size is, know if they fit the standard clothes sizes for their age range or if you have to buy larger or smaller ages, decide what to do with too-small clothes, know what their interests are so you can choose their toys and gifts or advise relatives and grandparents, know which toys they no longer need, decide how to dispose of these, ensure clean uniform is always ready, and PE kit on the right day, know what day they have to go to school in a 'book day' costume, or non-uniform day, or the day the class is going to the zoo so they have to be at school an hour early, know what day they have to take in cookery supplies, ensure food they like is available for packed lunches, and know what the school's policy is on packed lunch items, or alternatively remember to pay for the school lunches, know on what days their after-school clubs are, on what days their out-of-school clubs are, and when the fees for these need paying, what their weekend bookings are, know when to drop off, and when to collect, and if they need to take anything like a birthday present, and remember to RSVP the birthday invitation, and on and on and on it goes.

This is without considering any mental load relating to the general running of the household.

This mental work is neither low-value nor unnecessary.

All the organisations aspects of that don't need "mental load" nor memory - just set up an app or get a family planner calendar and you can relieve most of the mental load by not having to remember most of that.

SamanthaCaine · 01/02/2023 10:18

Naturally it's a pain when couples aren't sharing the workload but there's some hellish over-egging of 'mental load' activities on MN.

But MN is a strange place and I've never once heard anyone in real life talk about the mental load. And I know a lot of downtrodden women! But then I also know a lot of SAHD's so there is light at the end of the tunnel too.